Own gun sites

[david525]

Would it be a good idea if this forum had a map or by county all sites that allow own gun .We all know the likes of delta force is only in it for the money get the punters in take as much cash then sod them but to the good independent site that love the game as much as we do and like to have own guns ,we could do with a way for us to put players and sites.together

 

[BOD]

I think you'll find that all paintball sites are run as businesses and therefore in it for the money. Some sites will have days or events for own gunners but they won't make a living from those days.

 

[niloc65]

I found this google map created by someone on this forum - for the life if me I cant find the post so cant give credit - but I took a copy of the map link - hope it works.

It shows sites mostly in the southeast - but if you zoom out it shows other sites. Also it was created some time ago and so might not be accurate but its a good starting point.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4181985,0.1223371,9z/data=!4m2!6m1!1szTVdLZ2LNGeE.k5LHoM85eG3I?hl=en

 

[david525]

Hi bod just read you post and think you are way wrong.
If you look at in a business way a punter will go to a site may be once twice a year on average spending say 80quid out of which the site supply marsk overalls gun that the site has to buy lens get scratched straps stretch overalls wear and need washing guns need cleaning oiling and chronoing this is a job that the site has to pay someone to do which all comes out the 80 quid own gun use there own stuff so on kit to clean or wear out now own guns will want a better price on paint but a site will still be marking money on that own gun have to buy there equipment from some one once tell are own guns they will play a lot more so if a site is well run he keep going back if they have a own gun lib he joins he use that site a lot outing money in to there pockets more than the punter will over a year but my post was for a list of good sites that allow own gun that could be on here so we could just look as say Hertfordshire or buckingshire and see oh there is a site at x that says is own gun friend's

 

[Tom]

The real business that sustains sites is punter play, there are extreme investment costs and overheads for a site.
Allowing own guns has a number of other factors, especially the insurance consequences of allowing people to bring equipment such as gun and air cylinder
With the gun it's minor, but you have just lost the risk assessment control of 'site supplied equipment only'
With the cylinder you then have either the employers liability for your staff when filling isomeone else's cylinder (with proven risks that we went through 10 years ago with flash fill explosions) or you have to permit self fills and the risks related to that
A disclaimer is not worth the paper it's written on with regard to offsetting any liability

Allowing own gunners means having a high pressure air system with a minimum 3000psi compressor that can be run repeatedly through the day and a series of holding tanks. Then maintain all of that
Or say own guns are allowed but site co2 cylinders only, which restricts the guns people can use

This is why you still see co2 sites when they are predominately punter sites


Allow own guns to play with punters and the punters become afraid of the 'professionals'. At a bad site the own gunners hunt and abuse the punters. This was a common complaint in the past here and remains in such sites in the us
Let the punters get an inkling that own gunners are paying less and the site is in trouble
The in-between option here is a site membership scheme which may be on an own gunner or rental basis

Seperate the own gunners and you have the walkon style play, running costs are cheaper (once the switchover to air has happened) as they can take less marshalling (assuming a typical walkon is organized by a keen player or Marshall for the love of making it happen regularly), laundry doesn't save them much as done in bulk, maintenance again doesnt save much as they run guns optimized for sites.
The walkon wants a different grade of paint, and a profit can still be made, but the walkon wants to pay less (and will go elsewhere if they want) and the site gets less of a bulk saving. Even worse that bob likes X grade / brand, Fred wants y and Steves a pump player so wants to buy by the bag or to keep bringing back last months case again and again

Sites that run walkons do offer savings, but do so for keeping repeated business and it's only viable because of the punter income that keeps the funds turning over with enough profit for continued investment. Walkons get bored with the same old site and go elsewhere

 

[Tom]

I was that player

I started as a punter, came back again and again
Got my own guns and gear, and because i had a bright red spyder clone and didn't wear overalls then I was obviously a professional
Me and my mate were often split up onto opposite sides so that we didn't 'destroy' the other side because of two 'professionals'

We kept going back even when we discovered scenario events because we liked the site. It was good enough a site for us to come back and still pay the punter price. We played to the cash in our pocket

We kept in discussions with the manager about running walkons or events - but he just kept telling us we were proving ourselves wrong = he did not need to sell us cheaper walkon paintball, because we kept coming back and he always had a full site

One day though he said yes, and Task Force Delta began to run scenario events. The original dates were in February to even out the scenario calendar but primarily because it was his quiet time. He handed us exclusive use of the site for a February Sunday
We had success and the community supported us by coming and playing
We made no money, (not even Marshall wages) all entry fees and paint money went to the site, but also all staff and insurance costs came from the site
But he was still making less than a punter day, if it wasn't for the quiet season
We got the pleasure and glory of running out own game - we also then got a discount getting to turn up for free and pay lower paint prices (subsequently we discovered we were even paying under the staff paint price)

But even with such 'cheap' paintball we still played elsewhere, we like diversity and scenario events across the country
This desire for change has brought me to experience paintball across the county, in numerous kinds of venues, and every form of paintball

We were and still are ambassadors for paintball, nobody who meets me more than a handfull of times does not get me trying to get them to play. The owner would point punters to us to chat, most of whom we would actually push away from him as repeat customers because we would discuss all of paintball. Some would buy from his shop and come back a few times, but he would still not run walkons and only run a once a year event. But he looked after punters, and had a successful site


Walkons are around (and there are a few maps, the paintball calendar and site facebooks etc) but they aren't a winner for sites as a business model

 

[BOD]

Hi bod just read you post and think you are way wrong.
If you look at in a business way a punter will go to a site may be once twice a year on average spending say 80quid out of which the site supply marsk overalls gun that the site has to buy lens get scratched straps stretch overalls wear and need washing guns need cleaning oiling and chronoing this is a job that the site has to pay someone to do which all comes out the 80 quid own gun use there own stuff so on kit to clean or wear out now own guns will want a better price on paint but a site will still be marking money on that own gun have to buy there equipment from some one once tell are own guns they will play a lot more so if a site is well run he keep going back if they have a own gun lib he joins he use that site a lot outing money in to there pockets more than the punter will over a year but my post was for a list of good sites that allow own gun that could be on here so we could just look as say Hertfordshire or buckingshire and see oh there is a site at x that says is own gun friend's

Tried reading that but lack of punctuation made my head hurt, but yes your right, my 7 years as a site manager has left me with no clue as to how the business works.

 

[BOD]

Hi bod just read you post and think you are way wrong.
If you look at in a business way a punter will go to a site may be once twice a year on average spending say 80quid out of which the site supply marsk overalls gun that the site has to buy lens get scratched straps stretch overalls wear and need washing guns need cleaning oiling and chronoing this is a job that the site has to pay someone to do which all comes out the 80 quid own gun use there own stuff so on kit to clean or wear out now own guns will want a better price on paint but a site will still be marking money on that own gun have to buy there equipment from some one once tell are own guns they will play a lot more so if a site is well run he keep going back if they have a own gun lib he joins he use that site a lot outing money in to there pockets more than the punter will over a year but my post was for a list of good sites that allow own gun that could be on here so we could just look as say Hertfordshire or buckingshire and see oh there is a site at x that says is own gun friend's

I'd say your average punter spends less than £50, stag do's spend more but on average it will be less than £50, and yes the site has to pay for those things you list plus a lot more, marshals wages, insurance, site rent, infrastructure and site maintenance , air systems, not to mention tax and a host of of other things like marketing and publicity. But a good busy site could have 400 punters each weekend, where as a monthly walkon could be 30-50 players. Now my maths isn't great but lets say 400 punters a weekend x £50 x 4 weekends a month = £80,000 vs 30 -50 own gunners averaging say £40 each (£25 entry and one box at £40 which probably costs £25 so £15 profit ) 50 players = £2,000, out of which you have the marshals to pay, the extra insurance involved in catering for people with their own gear, the extra wear and tear on your air system as own gunners use a lot more air than punters do.

 

[BOD]

Even if you reduce the punter numbers to 100 a weekend (400 a weekend might be optimistic nowadays), 100 at an average of £50 each x 4 weekends a month is £20,00 and doubled the number of walkon players to 100 a month averaging £40 a player (even less if you allow BYO ) = £4,000 a month, which wouldn't even cover a weeks operating costs at the site i worked at.

 

[niloc65]

I've always thought most sites regarded walkon days as the little bit extra - not to be counted upon to run the business - but a nice bonus when they work i.e. 40-50 own guns.

Now some site owners, in my mind, utilize the own guns as a benefit to the site and can actually increase punter usage.
I ran a site in the 90's to self support my team. More often than not we would mix own guns and punters - do it fairly and in a way that does not intimidate the punters and you find they will chuck more paint to keep up. Many times we asked a own gun if they'd swap gun with the punter - or ask an own gun to go out with site kit for a game, and it showed its not often the gun but the player who makes the difference.
This also broke the ice and allowed the free banter between own guns and punters. Agreed it can be risky and you need strong marshals who keep an eye on things.

Campaign has often allowed some of us with our own pump guns to run an informal pump day, and that is run along side the regular walkon and punters. all seem to exist with out issue and for the betterment of the site and sport.

I've moved from North Kent to West Sussex and was really surprised at the number of sites NOT running walkon days in addition to regular punter days. Seems I was spoilt for choice in Kent. I often travel back to Kent for a walkon.

No site is going to exist on walkons alone - but sites need to embrace walkons, not shun them.

Just my two pence worth.

As a caveat to my post - we ran a pump site in the 90's - with modern ramping - I'd probably not put punter and own guns together.