Millennium Organisers

[markt]

Nick - you're bloomin mad mate!!!

Unworkable, unworkable, unworkable.

The game timer is a good idea but buzzers???? (we could go for pyrotechnics as well eh??)

The flag pull and run back is essential in the heated fast paced world of modern paintball ......... (yes it is Nick - let me finish).

You want to put a buzzer on the field that once pressed wins you the game. No eliminations to worry about, just press the buzzer before getting shot. What is going to happen on 10 seconds to go on say a 3 on 3??

Everyone runs for the buzzer, everyones shooting, buzzers are pressed - the game's won but there are shots on everyone and people had continued firing after the buzzer.

In the traditional existing format 99% of flag pulls are achieved only after all the opposition are eliminated (I say 99% - remember Toulouse last year??).

The remaining players are at liberty to pull the flag and take it back during what is now a non-active portion of the game - no guns firing etc. If the carrier has a shot on him when did it happen?? It could only have occured before the flag was pulled.

There is no arguments about that and the Marshals have a lull period in the game to sort this all out.

Your way would be an unmitigated disaster. It has a place in rec-ball but not in tournaments.

Long may it stay that way.

Over to you Nick

Mark T, Rushers

PS look out for the Rushers Visions in Sweden - we have something real special!!!!!!

 

[Minnow]

How about the best of both worlds ...

Keep the game timers and flags, however have it that the game buzzer, fireworks etc only go off when you have taken your opponents flag and deposited it in your flag recepticle at your own base ?

Helps the game become more visual for spectators and helps the judges with accurate game timming but at the same time does not open up the negative possibilities that Mark has highlighted.

Time can be automatically stopped when the flag is deposited, game stoppages become possible (although they shouldn't be encouraged) as everyone can see the same timer which can't be disputed (we've all seen our fair share of game time disputes).

just some thoughts.

Minnow.
Bouja.

 

[ascutt]

interesting..

I do like the idea of game timers but (surprise surprise) back my team mate Markt when i comes to buzzers - does any one remeber the old Speedball at Pondwood Farm. They had buzzers and all was fine for a while until time was low and teams ran for the buzzers - it was chaos, who pressed first, who is hit etc.
I think you need to rethink that one Nick but I do like the game timer idea.


Scutty

 

[goose]

you miss the point Mark...

of course eliminations would matter, they just wouldn't be used in determining the score.

You say the flag pull is required for todays game - I disagree. If anything it the most antiquated part of the game. You want excitement try this on for size...

Team A needs to beat Team B to move to the finals and they have to do it in under 5 minutes so as to get the points they need. They now can't afford to sit on their asses and play defensively. Imagine how exciting it would be when the clock is at 4:30 and they have 1 last elimination to get. Then imagine the mad dash to turn off the timer when they finally got the last elimination - no more casual jog (or walk) back with the flag. If you don't believe me think of any game you have seen when a guy is bustin' his ass back to get a hang instead of a in transit with the time running out.

Simple solutions could be found for many of the problems you and scutty bring up and it would make the game a hell of a lot more interesting for the spectators (and easier to follow).

goose

 

[manike]

I put this in the other thread but am copying it here also.

I was thinking a series of flags down the centre line of the field, say on the 0, 25, 50, 75, 100% marks.

The flags would be on weighted pivots so one end shows one teams colour the other end shows the other teams colour, by tipping the flag you can see who 'owns' that sector of the field. To start with you only own your base camp flag and get no points for owning this flag. You can then relate points for how long each zone is owned. You could see this as a rolling score on the corner of the screen... Obviously the flags further from your own base are worth more the longer you hold them. It would be easy to set up some electronics on the flags to see who owns each one and for how long... it could even have it's own set of LEDS/screen built into it. Once the flag in the opposition base is tipped you get a set bonus score (say double the points you have so far) and then the game resets. To stop teams loitering you will say they have 10 seconds to tip this final flag after the last elimination or they only get the points acrewed so far... and the game resets anyway.

Eliminated players immediately go to a sin bin type area, where they get cleaned up and pick up fresh pots and air. Obviously the last guy eliminated from a team needs time to refresh also so after a team gets the oppositions end zone there's a minute break... (note: the commercial break ) In total a game is played for 10 minutes of on field play time so it can be shown adequately on TV, (play time will vary depending on team format,) they always know how long a game will be in order to prep it for the big screen.

Obviously the winners are the team that tallies the most points. But it should also give teams the chance to fight back... especially if the teamks are close in skill... could be a hella competition...

It will mean more play time for everyone, lets face it we often spend a lot of money for only a few seconds time on the field (if we max or get maxed...) It will probably mean a lot more paint gets shot so it may turn out more expensive but if we shoot more paint the price of paint MAY come down... but heck if it's a TV format the paint will be paid for by someone else... That my friends is the whole point.

Hey Niall It wouldn't be hard to set up a demo type game at Campaign...

I guess you can tell I have been thinking about this a lot

Comments please.

manike

 

[manike]

I also think we need flags not buzzers as we need something visual for the cameras and spectators to see.

My idea will also give a good indicator as to who has the most points, you can see which colour flags are up and see times for each flag owned...

Would be easy to set up electronically so all the info could be seen on a big screen too.

We need visuals to make it watchable not buzzers.

With my system of flags you would not often get to players from different teams running in the last 30 seconds to tip the same flag... if anything they would be runnign to opposite ends as that is where the most valuable flags are for them.

manike

 

[manike]

Having talked to people in the media about this they say that the biggest problem with putting the game on TV is firstly knowing what is happening and who is winning, but also that the game time varies so much.

I.e. we need to be able to tell more visually who is winning and we need to have a set lenght for a game between teams. Giving points for how fast a game is finished is going against what the TV people want. They want to know that a game will give them X amount of time to show on TV if they wish (they can always edit it down to highlights if required).

By having resets the game can go on for as long as required. think of it exactly like Football, a goal is scored, there's a short break and then play continues until the end of the total alloted time... this is a set format so they always get enough of what they need.

Also think of this, if teams know they can get multiple bites at the apple per game they may try more outrageous breaks and moves, as if they lose quickly, they always have chance to win the next set of points and get right back into the game.

manike

 

[goose]

Holy complicated Batman...

Manike how would the flags be changed?? How would you stop teams from sitting on their asses and playing defensively (if all you have to do is have control of field position at the end of the game then why not wait out the opponent and then take all the field when they where all gone).

Saying that there would be 10 minutes of game time (with posibility of resets) wouldn't help. It wouldn't be fair for some teams to get 2 or maybe 3 games when others (playing against defensive teams) might only get 1.

The whole idea with buzzers and points based on the time is to:
1) promote agressive (and therefore spectator friendly) games
2) cut down all the obscure scoring rules therby making it easier for spectators to follow
3) get rid of the out of date "flag in transit"

goose

 

[manike]

Holy complicated Batman...

Originally posted by goose
Manike how would the flags be changed??

It's like a seesaw, the players tip it themselves to make their flag show at the top. Just as easy as pressing a buzzer.

Originally posted by goose
How would you stop teams from sitting on their asses and playing defensively (if all you have to do is have control of field position at the end of the game then why not wait out the opponent and then take all the field when they where all gone).

Because you get less points for holding flags of your own colour in your own end. If the other team just gets to the 50 and tips the flag they will be in the lead. They will be no bonus whatsoever to playing defensively. You will lose on points. Eliminations don't count so you can afford to throw players forward to get that flag... I think it will makes players try harder moves and be more aggressive as they have more chances to play ina game, they don't just have one life and then that's it.

Originally posted by goose
Saying that there would be 10 minutes of game time (with posibility of resets) wouldn't help. It wouldn't be fair for some teams to get 2 or maybe 3 games when others (playing against defensive teams) might only get 1.

Teams wouldn't get different numbers of games, they would all get exactly ten minutes of play time and as many resets in that time as dictated. It's only one game in total, wether you sit and wait and get few points or max many times and get lots of points it's still only one game. If two teams play paintball, does the number of goals scored dictate how many games they have played between themselves? of course not. The thing is now where a game can be anywhere from 2mins to full time I think that is completelyunfair. At least with this if you get maxed all the time you will still get a full ten minutes of play to try other things and to learn from. You wouldn't get maxed in 2 minutes and sent home... I think that is sooo much fairer and it's what is needed for the game to be TV friendly.

Originally posted by goose
The whole idea with buzzers and points based on the time is to:
1) promote agressive (and therefore spectator friendly) games
2) cut down all the obscure scoring rules therby making it easier for spectators to follow
3) get rid of the out of date "flag in transit"

1) the flags will promote agressive play in the same way the buzzers would, flags in the oppositions end are what you need to win not flags in your own end. Flags in the opposition end are woth much more than your own flags. We could have the total number of points you get go through as your score...which means everyone is playing for the most points they can or we could have the team that wins get three points etc like football... I prefer the first option as teams will be working to get the most points they can in every game.

2) Flags are something spectators can follow, buzzers are not. You can't tell whats happening with just a few mad rushes to press a buzzer, a team that was miles behind could suddenly win. With the flag system the best team will win most of the time.

3) there will be no flags in transit, the flags are stationary and can be seen by all to understand how the game is going.

You need to think of what will be good for players and what will be good for the media. That's the hardest thing for people that just want to play and are only worried about themselves to do. The sport needs to change if we want more media attention. It won't be an easy change.

manike

 

[Buddha 3]

Hmmm, now I don't see why the game needs to be a set length for it to be televised. American football matches don't have set lengths, neither does boxing. Still they draw a lot of viewers. I personally would not like the idea that no points would be scored for eliminations, it goes against the whole grain of paintball. Anybody who plays paintball does so for the simple fact that they like to shoot somebody upside the head. I think by taking away the points for an elimination, you take away the 'soul' of paintball.

Just my opinion......