Ramping at the PA...

[John C]

Originally posted by robtattoo
Because the assisted shots are still going to be at an exact interval, whether to speed up, or slow down. The software is very basic, all it does is open or close a circuit at a specific interval. Even if your board gives you an unspecified amount of extra shots, at uneven intervals, it is going to be detectable by the machine.

Another easy solution would be to slow-mo video the player pulling his/her trigger & then count the 'bangs' to coincide with each trigger pull. Actually, this is impractical in it's simplest sense, but it does highlight a possible route to a solution.

Not necessarily.
Take the tadao board as an example.
It has two debounce settings, one which is used at low rates of fire, one that is used at higher rates of fire.
You can set that up (as many do) so that it only snubs contact bounce at low rates of fire. Couple that with an overly bouncy microswitch (like the ones in DM4s) and you have a load of randomly spaced shots added on at high rates of fire.
In other words you have ramping that your system would not detect.

My other point is to do with the 15bps cap imposed by the insurance companies, they state that no two shots can be closer than 1/15 seconds apart. So if my shots are cocistently (or not) closer than 1/15seconds apart then I will get an even rate of fire at 15bps and your system would identify me as a cheater. Even though I am not.



I hate being so dismissive of what people think are good ideas, but there are alot of threads already on this forum that cover these ideas. Perhaps a furum search would save us all alot of typing.

 

[robtattoo]

Point taken, question answered. Thank you John.

 

[Nickyboy]

Originally posted by Collier
Mark, you don't agree with ramping fair enough, make it all go away in one simple step, tell us how to catch cheat chips?

This is a long thread and I'm not a fan of reading so excuse my quotes from way back.

This sums up the whole issue doesn't it?

If you can't catch people with secret ramping boards before, how can you now catch them mid game in respect to the ramping bps and velocity.

Just now it's less blatent surely as everyones gats sound like machineguns as they ramp up.

I like the whole "this isn't a safety issue I've seen goggles take 15bps at 2 cms before" ......I've seen a car take a head on impact at 30mph and only smart a dummy. Without replacement parts / new structure I've seen what happens with a 2nd collision. Structural failure.

As if the dood who smashed your face is going to admit that he had it going faster the 15bps and the event organisers will be left with the issue cos of their rulling.

Bring this back in a few years when you have a better test then sound to time test. Or the money to place them around the arena, or in marshalls hands.

 

[Collier]

Originally posted by Nickyboy
This is a long thread and I'm not a fan of reading so excuse my quotes from way back.

This sums up the whole issue doesn't it?

If you can't catch people with secret ramping boards before, how can you now catch them mid game in respect to the ramping bps and velocity.

Just now it's less blatent surely as everyones gats sound like machineguns as they ramp up.

I like the whole "this isn't a safety issue I've seen goggles take 15bps at 2 cms before" ......I've seen a car take a head on impact at 30mph and only smart a dummy. Without replacement parts / new structure I've seen what happens with a 2nd collision. Structural failure.

As if the dood who smashed your face is going to admit that he had it going faster the 15bps and the event organisers will be left with the issue cos of their rulling.

Bring this back in a few years when you have a better test then sound to time test. Or the money to place them around the arena, or in marshalls hands.

Read the thread the answers are in there.

 

[Nickyboy]

None of it is facts, it's all personal opinion of Mr Rampo, or Miss Barbie acording to what side you sit on, which is why I got bored.

I'll make it easier to answer then, but don't try unless you actually have proof and not opinion.

Can goggles now take 15bps, without failure?

Are we still using mr useless marshal to decide what is bounce and ramp mid game?

Can the mrshall test on spot, ie grabbing a marker and test that second, by a method not by "ear or feeling"?

Is there more the one wave mapping testing machine per arena when the rule rolled out?


And no offence to marshals yeah, but I've seen penelties for ramping, only later for the same marshal to say it wasn't ramp, but infact bounce. He mean't he didn't really know.

 

[Flash-Bugout]

Originally posted by Nickyboy
Can goggles now take 15bps, without failure?

Yes, proof = Manikes video, of a set of gogs taking a full halo at over 20bps from 3 feet at over 300fps. I'm sure Collier won't mind posting the quote/link. again And if they can't, how do they cope with the naughty hidden cheater chips that hit around 20bps?

Originally posted by Nickyboy

Are we still using mr useless marshal to decide what is bounce and ramp mid game?

Mid game it's just the RoF and velocity being checked

Originally posted by Nickyboy
Can the mrshall test on spot, ie grabbing a marker and test that second, by a method not by "ear or feeling"?

No need - they point the device at the gat, it shows that they RoF is higher than 15, the player is eliminated

Originally posted by Nickyboy
Is there more the one wave mapping testing machine per arena when the rule rolled out?

That one I can't answer, cos I wasn't there.

 

[Steve Hancock]

Originally posted by Nickyboy
None of it is facts, it's all personal opinion of Mr Rampo, or Miss Barbie acording to what side you sit on, which is why I got bored.

I'll make it easier to answer then, but don't try unless you actually have proof and not opinion.

Ok

Can goggles now take 15bps, without failure?

There is no evidence showing otherwise.

Are we still using mr useless marshal to decide what is bounce and ramp mid game?

Can only commment on series i have seen, the PA - In the PA i didn't see any in-game bounce or ramp tests, these were carried out pre and post game.

Can the mrshall test on spot, ie grabbing a marker and test that second, by a method not by "ear or feeling"?

No, they don't need to grab a marker in game to check it, they will use the remote bps counter.

Is there more the one wave mapping testing machine per arena when the rule rolled out?

There was one machine at the first round, all refs however had radios and could call for the device if it was needed. Next round there will be more there.

EDIT Aghh, in other words what he ^ said.

 

[Edd Hobday]

Alright Nick, how you doing mate?

Originally posted by Nickyboy

Can goggles now take 15bps, without failure?

The fact is they already are. There are already ramping gats out there that ramp well in excess of 15bps....at least this way there is a way of policeing it.

Originally posted by Nickyboy


Is there more the one wave mapping testing machine per arena when the rule rolled out?

This has already been answered earlier in the thread. At the first leg, no there wasn't but all the machines will be inplace for next time.

Originally posted by Nickyboy


And no offence to marshals yeah, but I've seen penelties for ramping, only later for the same marshal to say it wasn't ramp, but infact bounce. He mean't he didn't really know.

Thats the whole point, was the marker ramping or bouncing? In this case it was bouncing. This new rule eliminates that problem...or at least goes furthe to solving it than any other.

-EDD
(damn Flash&Steve beat me to it)

 

[Russell Smith]

Some very good points but most of it has been done to death.
But I will try and reply to some of the questions.

The cheat chips can and do add shots at random so we can not use the machines to trace them and pick them up. and even if I could I would have to prove that whomever was shooting the gun was not pulling the trigger for each shot.

As for the machines themselves, you are right we do need more of them but they are like rocking horse poo to get hold off, indeed we was asked by the MS to loan them ours for germany so you know its not a money issue. I expect we will have more by the next event.
As for mad dog and his claim about the goggle system, the ones he is on about are very popular in the states/UK and have passed every test that is required off all goggle systems, it is a personal opinion of his, I hope he is wrong and I am sure he is but I will take the advice of the testing department in the USA.
And he is not against ramping !!!!!
I have tried to be reasonable with him I have even phoned him up and talked to him but he now has this crusade in mind against the PA and Myself, he claims I lied to him about the letter from the home office, but now he has seen it he still says I lied.
I am sure I am not on his xmas card list but I have done nothing wrong.
As for Mr useless marshal to detect ramp or bounce.
Well Mr useless player as far as the rules were concerned they are the same, meaning your gun was not in semi auto mode only was it.
The other point about your gun shooting on after you stop shooting, of course it does thats what ramping is.
You pull your trigger at the rate of 5 shots per second and it will fire at 15 shots per second. so it will fire two shots in 130milli seconds after you stop shooting.
We think that is better than someone (like the one we found on sunday) shooting 22 bps at you.
I feel as though we are banging heads on a brick wall at times and of course if goggles are not safe at 15bps I hope nobody plays anywhere they play uncapped at 300fps !
I told the importer of the goggle system that mark was going on about and I know what will happen if he mentions them or the name is hinted at, its just scaremongering in the worst way.

Before we went ahead with this rule most players claimed they could shoot quicker than 15bps and Mad dog didnt tell us about the goggles then - wonder why.


Russ

 

[mad dog]

Originally posted by Russell Smith
Some very good points but most of it has been done to death.
But I will try and reply to some of the questions.

The cheat chips can and do add shots at random so we can not use the machines to trace them and pick them up. and even if I could I would have to prove that whomever was shooting the gun was not pulling the trigger for each shot.

As for the machines themselves, you are right we do need more of them but they are like rocking horse poo to get hold off, indeed we was asked by the MS to loan them ours for germany so you know its not a money issue. I expect we will have more by the next event.
As for mad dog and his claim about the goggle system, the ones he is on about are very popular in the states/UK and have passed every test that is required off all goggle systems, it is a personal opinion of his, I hope he is wrong and I am sure he is but I will take the advice of the testing department in the USA.
And he is not against ramping !!!!!
I have tried to be reasonable with him I have even phoned him up and talked to him but he now has this crusade in mind against the PA and Myself, he claims I lied to him about the letter from the home office, but now he has seen it he still says I lied.
I am sure I am not on his xmas card list but I have done nothing wrong.
As for Mr useless marshal to detect ramp or bounce.
Well Mr useless player as far as the rules were concerned they are the same, meaning your gun was not in semi auto mode only was it.
The other point about your gun shooting on after you stop shooting, of course it does thats what ramping is.
You pull your trigger at the rate of 5 shots per second and it will fire at 15 shots per second. so it will fire two shots in 130milli seconds after you stop shooting.
We think that is better than someone (like the one we found on sunday) shooting 22 bps at you.
I feel as though we are banging heads on a brick wall at times and of course if goggles are not safe at 15bps I hope nobody plays anywhere they play uncapped at 300fps !
I told the importer of the goggle system that mark was going on about and I know what will happen if he mentions them or the name is hinted at, its just scaremongering in the worst way.

Before we went ahead with this rule most players claimed they could shoot quicker than 15bps and Mad dog didnt tell us about the goggles then - wonder why.


Russ

Official. Red Heat out of the PA not because of Skill or being outplayed , we lost loads, thats our fault, we sucked.

Good bye PA, Good luck.

You all read and seen this little novel, I have not been against the PA until told like sheep get in that pen, or else we take in Shockwave.

Very poor oh very scary!

Well bring in Shockwave or whoever. you offered nothing for our sponsors and nothing for anybody wishing to explain safety issues they are concerned with, that was all.

Good reply from Russell thats a change as he never sounds that sensible with his answers, must of studied and worked at those answers with a friendly magazine editor on the case.

Just let you guys out there know never did see the site insurance or had that meeting as promised , suppose it dosnt matter now. Arnt you glad PA that all players are not like me and view there points in this free speaking world.

With running a tournament comes great responsibility, part of that responsibility is to communicate information, maybe a leaf should be taken out of MM when news gets emailed out to you.

And players are fully aware of the changes before they happen, thus being able to prepare.

Make up you own mind


My book is now closed, goodbye, enjoy.

OR wait for the sequel THE RAMPING STRIKES BACK.

This has been really funny watching people run around like rabbits in headlights , sorry if Any body has been offended or people take some things to serious, we need to lighten up.

But sometimes truth hurts.

My grammer may not perfect but sometimes its hard to put feelings into words and I never said I was an expert on typing well.

I hate laptop keyboards when writing books.