Welcome To P8ntballer.com
The Home Of European Paintball
Sign Up & Join In

So you think you know about Paintball ?

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
13,114
2,157
448
London
www.p8ntballer.com
One of the purposes of this forum is to provoke new ideas, and then, have a reasoned and responsible discussion about them ...hopefully.
That being the case, I think I'll kick this one off by asking the following question:- Can you create a new team that can seriously compete without ever playing against/training with another team?
During this initial training phase, the idea is to stop playing events altogether and that also means the players cannot play for any other team as a guest or whatever.
Basically, this new team goes it alone until such time as the coach/players deems it's time to unveil to begin competing.
I'd better qualify that by adding, this hypothetical team has say, 10 members, all of whom are committed to the program and determined to improve their skill-sets ....

If you are not sure of anything when trying to answer this question, just ask, I'll clarify anything that needs it.

All opinions are welcome and I look forward to people's ideas, doubts and conclusions .....
 
  • Like
Reactions: James ECI

James ECI

UK Woodland Masters
Jul 31, 2007
2,352
693
148
Kent
Can you create a new team that can seriously compete without ever playing against/training with another team?

Are the players already established? what is the skill level?
 

Tom

Tom
Nov 27, 2006
4,076
1,210
198
Salisbury
www.TaskForceDelta.co.uk
Are the players already established? what is the skill level?
I'm going to assume not established, players not having competed, and a zero to basic skill level of nil to some recreational experience

Could i do it? No
Could someone do it? I think so

The team are motivated and the coach will have the right mindset to invoke upon them

My tournament experience is limited, and I take it from following recreational / scenario players, with a couple of members with some prior experience going into the tournament circuit and the mindset that I feel is responsible for their journey

At the beginners level there were 'easier' rules and also things that you can get away with off field that don't matter until you progress. The initial mindset looks ahead to what will be incurred at higher levels.

(I think) there was an allowance on being within a boundary around the start gate, as opposed to touching at the go point
Can't make it to your first position? Don't start further away from the gate - all you've achieved is shortening the distance and failed to get better

Run a pit crew. At basic 5 man you have a general timetable (which you need to learn runs quicker than the timetable - I've noted overseas teams complaining that events run quicker than scheduled And blaming that for not being ready)

You don't have the almost instant turnaround of race formats
Learn to be ready, I learned that in scenario in the old days. When called into game the air fill queue was miles long - fill as you leave the field (I also noted when I went to 4500psi that there was never a queue at the 3000 fill station and a line of late players at the 4500 fill station, 2/3rd of a fill is more than a empty bottle)
Many beginner teams are struggling for numbers and may only have 5 players. One spare person makes a big difference. If you just have your 10 players then that still gives you numbers for a crew
Ensure every player is aired, clean and has full pots & hopper
Monitor the schedule, keep track of time and know who is playing when - you know how ahead the schedule gets and when to watch other teams
Keep the pits organised,feedback to the players
Monitor the paint for when to get fresh paint, know where the players are, ready a spare gun, hold a chrono tool - make sure that for every game there are 5 players ready and fully functioning in time

Get a camera man, or at least a video camera You then have something to look back on and analyse/learn/improve

Going onto the field. Don't just go on and play. The first 'training' I saw on an open training field was just random teams going on and playing games. That can prove whether a plan works or fails, but even then it isn't conclusive, it just means that move beat that other teams move, you got away with it or you didn't get away with it.
It could work next time, it could fail every time in the furure because now someone has seen your plan
Skirmishing gives the chance to go through moves and experience play. Spitting your team of 10 into 2 sides give you this (not the diversity of playing against different teams)

Structured training is different, eg sometimes on open training you don't see people playing games but only going through repeated breaks and stopping once in primary positions, starting in set pace positions or splitting the field in half or quarters and having different players practicing different moves & positions
Set a training plan with specific skills to learn

All of the above can be conducted in isolation
A skilled coach can run such a programme (perhaps even an unskilled coach could run a programme based on the skills resources around)

Seriously compete?
Do the above and arrive at the basic levels and the team would be far ahead from the new team that jumps straight in and learns as they go - definately have a good prospects and will only fail if unprepared for the unpredictable other team

Arrive at a higher level, turning up new on then scene and taking the top podium will probably be unlikely, but I've seen a lot of underdog films and they always win
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
13,114
2,157
448
London
www.p8ntballer.com
Can you create a new team that can seriously compete without ever playing against/training with another team?

Are the players already established? what is the skill level?
The players don't necessarily have to be established such that they're playing in pro leagues or event semi-pro - The only qualifier on the skill-set required of any prospective player would be that they will have to have played the game but it's not mandatory these players have played pro or semi-pro.

This leaves open the question as to why on earth would someone want to create a team with players who aren't proven such as the pros or semi-pros?
My answer would be simple, there are players out there who may have never played pro or semi-pro but they may well possess the ability/potential to compete at that level.

And so, the general answer would be that the final product is all about creating a team not so much moulding existing players ...
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
13,114
2,157
448
London
www.p8ntballer.com
Actually, Tom makes some really good points, he brings up a few things I hadn't even thought about but just to make sure we stay on track here; the question I ask is a general one - and that is, whether or not a new team could compete [within the first year of creation] at the top of our sport?
I'll give myself some leeway here and widen the objective such that this new team [within one year] can compete with pro/semi-pro teams ..

I think any answer would have to begin with either, 'Yes' or 'No' ... and then go on to explain your reasons as to which answer you selected.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Tom

Tom

Tom
Nov 27, 2006
4,076
1,210
198
Salisbury
www.TaskForceDelta.co.uk
Yes (but I'm going to qualify my answe!)

The same basics I put above

They can spend a year (or at least the lions share of the months leading up to the last event of the season) working on skills and putting them into practice against each other, perhaps even turning up at events and sitting on the sidelines as bystanders watching and analysing the teams they plan to go up against

Then turn up as an unknown entity and step in

With the right skills trained, practice and experience (limited to their private practice) their first game will be a deciding factor. I expect a pro or semi pro team to not totally discount the new team, but there will be no predictability. They will have to play the game blind and use their greater experience to read the game.
Discount the new team and the risk is they get lucky and take a win. The new team will be at a disadvantage against experience if they just sit defensively - unless they have fine tuned all those skills and manage to pick off the pros whilst staying in game. If they go in with heavy aggression then they are gambling on the pros being caught off guard, this would be a glorious gamble but with a high risk. It's more likely have a chance to pull it off on mid levels then pro/semi

By the second game they are going to be watched by everyone, so all 'unknown' advantages are lost
Now they have to hold their own on pure skills against experience and skills. They will have to be technically strong to keep players live in game - and force the opposition to work for their points

I qualify my yes in that I'm verging on the side that they will be able to 'compete' and not be a whitewash, not that they can podium

It will be down to their technical skills being refined and the possible advantage over the established teams of being an unknown factor against known teams
Winning will be another step. It's arguable that you can be good competion and still lose, as long as the opposition had to earn their win. With the balance in games decided by many factors from getting off the break into the right positions, getting ahead on players in a numbers game and pulling off a finish - there is the chance for the new team to hold their own and make some wins
Losing every game is going to put them on the bottom, winning some is still going to leave them on the bottom. Honed skills could put them a little higher
Are they going to compete to such a level to take a podium through a year in secret - very doubtful, but it would be fun to see!
 

Spikerz

Super Moderator
Mar 25, 2014
1,834
732
148
45
I'm going to be contrary, but with reasons.

No.
Reasons -
Like most sports, you can teach fundamentals. You know how to dribble a football, throw a baseball, shoot with both hands and play tight.
There's the X factor though, the "paintball smarts" the understanding the flow of the game learned from being in game after game.
I'm not sure that can be explained effectively or taught in a practice only environment.

In 20 years of playing, I've found myself at times being able to understand the flow of the game, set up a lane into the snake, and wham a guy appears in the stream when I thought he was 2-3 bunkers away, but I felt the move coming. (I wish I did that every game instead of once in a blue moon lol).

How many times have you seen Federov just launch down a side knowing a team is looking the wrong way and smokes out 4 guys.

I think you can make a competitive team, in relation to either their skill level, or especially the skill level of the teams they scrim against. If you have a practice schedule setup where a new team plays against the TonTons and gets a play by play breakdown from them every week for a year. Then the first event? Yea they'll do really well. If they're playing against each other? Maybe not as successful.

A good coach can take a team a really long way, but people are flawed in some ways, and only through grinding point after point, and seeing different looks, breakouts, bounce shots, snap shots, off the break shots against multiple teams do they learn and get better.
 

Stan

Platinum Member
Jul 18, 2001
2,134
75
73
(Is this not what you did with Nexus? And Sergey with the Russians?)

You're basically talking about a Talent ID and Development model so there is evidence in other sports that says it should be possible and I would love to be involved in something like that.

The sport I coach in has identified and developed an individual to achieve Olympic Gold in 4 years. I don't think you could truly have the impact that you want in just one year but with a couple of years of the right support and people I reckon it's very possible.
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
13,114
2,157
448
London
www.p8ntballer.com
@Stan - you were right to mention how Nexus were created and even more right to identify Sergey's achievements with his Russian Legion.
However, those were very privileged examples not least because of the financial support that Nexus and the Legion both enjoyed.
And so, we can maybe assume my initial proposition is correct that in fact, you can get a team to be competitive in the time restraint mentioned but can we extend this to include other, not so well-financed teams?

And remember, I'm not suggesting this newly created team has to be a world-beater, I'm asking if they can be competitive.
The only other thing I need to clarify is, the major determinant in the success of this hypothetical new team is of course the skill-sets and/or potential of each player.
And just to prod you along a bit, most of us have heard of the U.K. Predators from years back, they ruled Europe for nigh on ten years and were one of the top three teams in the world.
I was out with Marcus and a couple of other Preds on Tuesday and the reason I mention them is because they had about 3 great players in that side and I don't think they'd disagree about that but their strength/success came from somewhere else.
That 'somewhere else' should help you address the question this thread posits.