UKPBA/Delta Force Link Proof

[Missy-Q]

I would class what you wrote as an opionion, backed up by your facts sure, but an opinion none the less. Which as ive said your welcomed to have. I personally never said you would/could change my mind in my post, I stated that I had a clear viewpoint on DF. As for saying I (and others) are wrong for having an opinion on DF, that seems a little unfair.

I think knowing you would matter as I could read your posts in a different light with a greater understanding of the kind of person you are.


Anyway, i'll leave it at that otherwise it will spiral off topic.

I'm not aiming for a fall-out here SD. I posted because I saw many inaccuracies in people's statements regarding DF. Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion, but an opinion based on what; hearsay, or real experience? My money says 90% of it is hearsay. I want people here to have some facts they may find enlightening is all.

I would expect Delta Force to have more customer complaints than anyone else, more injuries than anyone else, and more enemies than anyone else. They can do all this and more if they simply have more customers than anyone else, which they do. There may well be other contributing factors, but I could put 85% of those down to remote-management issues shared in any industry. It is extremely difficult to execute good quality-control over multiple locations from a head-office, without a full corporate structure. Service has to suffer and I'm sure it does. Think local Restuarant vs Fast Food chain.

How about this? To bring more people into paintball, would you rather;

a. Sit down and devise a whole new plan to achieve our goals, invest in a business-plan, and then execute and hope it works, or
b. Tweak a model that is proven, through 20 years of success?

if the answer is b, maybe it's time to stop bagging on Delta Force and take a good hard look at what they do.

 

[Biscuit]

missy totally agree with what you say about their business modal
yes it works and yes they have very good sites.
the but is the lies they us too get people there or should i say the stretching of the truth, the sellers of their tickets do in the shopping malls,also pinching other sites customers when they are already booked in at the other site (this as happened at the site i work at on several occasions )
the UKPBA which was set up by delta accredit their own sites,they say they have 500,000 members but how many of these members realise they where becoming members of the ukpba it`s things like this that upset people ,they say they want too push the sport forward but we only see other people doing this,now if they backed up what they say then i would say there would be alot of people more willing too except them in the community

 

[Soul Doubt]

I'm not aiming for a fall-out here SD. I posted because I saw many inaccuracies in people's statements regarding DF. Of course everyone is entitled to an opinion, but an opinion based on what; hearsay, or real experience? My money says 90% of it is hearsay. I want people here to have some facts they may find enlightening is all.

I would expect Delta Force to have more customer complaints than anyone else, more injuries than anyone else, and more enemies than anyone else. They can do all this and more if they simply have more customers than anyone else, which they do. There may well be other contributing factors, but I could put 85% of those down to remote-management issues shared in any industry. It is extremely difficult to execute good quality-control over multiple locations from a head-office, without a full corporate structure. Service has to suffer and I'm sure it does. Think local Restuarant vs Fast Food chain.

How about this? To bring more people into paintball, would you rather;

a. Sit down and devise a whole new plan to achieve our goals, invest in a business-plan, and then execute and hope it works, or
b. Tweak a model that is proven, through 20 years of success?

if the answer is b, maybe it's time to stop bagging on Delta Force and take a good hard look at what they do.

Its hard to read emotions in posts I know, so please dont think I was angry in mine, I enjoy the debate. Which was part of the reason I was saying if I knew you better then I could read your posts from an enlightened perspective. Robbo luckily has that chance and reads through that perspective which he naturally uses to make informed replies to your comments. I on the other hand fall victim of fabricating your posts emotions using only I see in front of me, not knowing your a more pragmatic person ment that I misread your posts. Thats how I see it anyway

Anywho, its an interesting topic, and you are right they are sucessful, but they cant hold their heads up high in our community because they know aswel as we do how they conduct themselves. IF and thats a big old if, they could be changed to a more 'Pro' paintball stance then I would look at them diffferently, but i honestly think they couldnt care less about paintball because it would drive away their customers, or at least they may think that way about it. Look at the wonderful world of paintball we have, all that creative talent from the people who play to those who produce the gats & gear dont exist in DF, and thats a dam shame, mainly a shame on them.

Ive had personal experience with DF, dont get me wrong I had a great 2 years with them and enjoyed my work, but that doesnt mean I think the company was a good one, they see people as cash cows and I quote "tip them upside down and shake them till there money drops out" which came from someone higher than a site manger standing next to me at the time. im afriad that company is no different from say starbucks, yes its still coffee but the ethics behined that coffee is made of coin and paper Im not saying they are a success in what they do, but ive always stated that the best paintball site needs to be a community, like NPF, DF could never shake them because not only do they provide a good service and experience but have a good community of paintballers and show people the 'other side' of our beloved sport. DF doesnt see money in that, therefore its not an option.


*(just to note I dont work or live near NPF, just been their once or twice and think they have a good site!)

Anyway, good night gents!

 

[Echowitch]

Robbo, that has to be quote of the week about Al Capone and the Krays.

At present there are several complaints in with the ASA (Advertising Standards Authority) about their business practices. One in particular is the links between Delta Force/BlueC 77 and the UKPBA. They deny any links and the ASA are currently unable to find any links. If they could find credible links it would end up with DF getting the spanking of their lives and put a stop the whole UKPBA lie. They've already been forced to make changes to their website with regards to how they represent the UKPBA. However that is mostly them just changing an outright claim to the below:

Today the UKPBA has a membership of well over 500,000 current or former paintball players, UK paintball site operators and other trade organisations – quite possibly making it the largest body representing British paintball and giving clout to the claim that it is the governing body of the sport of paintball in the UK.

However they are not the Governing Body, in fact the UKPSF and Federation aren't either until they make certain changes to the way they operate to make them more legitimate.

 

[Missy-Q]

Its hard to read emotions in posts I know, so please dont think I was angry in mine, I enjoy the debate. Which was part of the reason I was saying if I knew you better then I could read your posts from an enlightened perspective. Robbo luckily has that chance and reads through that perspective which he naturally uses to make informed replies to your comments. I on the other hand fall victim of fabricating your posts emotions using only I see in front of me, not knowing your a more pragmatic person ment that I misread your posts. Thats how I see it anyway

Anywho, its an interesting topic, and you are right they are sucessful, but they cant hold their heads up high in our community because they know aswel as we do how they conduct themselves. IF and thats a big old if, they could be changed to a more 'Pro' paintball stance then I would look at them diffferently, but i honestly think they couldnt care less about paintball because it would drive away their customers, or at least they may think that way about it. Look at the wonderful world of paintball we have, all that creative talent from the people who play to those who produce the gats & gear dont exist in DF, and thats a dam shame, mainly a shame on them.

Ive had personal experience with DF, dont get me wrong I had a great 2 years with them and enjoyed my work, but that doesnt mean I think the company was a good one, they see people as cash cows and I quote "tip them upside down and shake them till there money drops out" which came from someone higher than a site manger standing next to me at the time. im afriad that company is no different from say starbucks, yes its still coffee but the ethics behined that coffee is made of coin and paper Im not saying they are a success in what they do, but ive always stated that the best paintball site needs to be a community, like NPF, DF could never shake them because not only do they provide a good service and experience but have a good community of paintballers and show people the 'other side' of our beloved sport. DF doesnt see money in that, therefore its not an option.


*(just to note I dont work or live near NPF, just been their once or twice and think they have a good site!)

Anyway, good night gents!

Lil' bit of trivia seeing as you appreciate the NPF - The guy that set up the marketing model for Flying Colours/DF was an Irish guy called John (can't recall last name right now), and when he left DF in the early 90's, the NPF met with him and discussed his technique. They implemented several of his methods, which are really only 'telesales', specifically his scripting model, at their field, and saw lasting results. The basics are still used today in their current model I'm sure. I think the NPF is still the 2nd busiest in the UK (behind Delta Forces total numbers). Campaign would also be in with a shout for 2nd, and their field is across the street from the original Delta Force field. I don't know current numbers so I stand corrected if there is another 'big player'.

 

[Ian Mac]

There are a few "big players" at that sort of level but I wouldn't like to place them in any order. Some of your figures and facts are a bit out but on the whole your on the money. I think I have sold them more kit than anyone else

 

[stongle]

If I'd been running DF 20 years ago, they'd be so successful now to be getting a Govt bailout.

I think the general beef with Delta (aside from me not running it and blowing the profits on blow, hookers and super yachts), is they're a bit smarter than everyone else. If people signed up to the UKPBA (or whatever) and by the sounds of it they have; it's not a lie is it? They appear to have invented a handy little metric for counting players; whom else can do that?

If DF are buying products from the wholesale side of the industry, then they are (in a big way) actually supporting the peoples here ability to play it. They don't need to put anything back or expend money on a fools errand supporting tournament. They're business model is allowing "punters" to exercise the inner Raoul Moat (although they missed a trick if they don’t get Gazza to do celebrity Chicken and Chips). It's a business, albeit not a lifestyle one.

 

[Robbo]

I haven't seen the promo, but my question would be; 'Does it work'? If it does, and they aren't breaking the law, then that would be classed by many as smart business.

I feel I need to make myself clearer - You don't have to like Delta Force (most don't). I have run fields where they were my competition, and I didn't appreciate their street-sales tactics much, especially when the players showed up at our field to redeem their vouchers.

My first point is that the Industry has ostracised and bad-mouthed them for years (unless they've been selling to them). They are pretty much universally hated, and receive no help or support from any organisation in the UK (that I know of), in fact they can only expect the opposite - to be knocked and kicked for whatever they do. So, with that in miind, why should they care about the fed's, or the traditional industry group's, or any other organisation's feelings? They simply aren't interested in all that stuff, and don't consider it. They have no friends to keep happy, so they do what they want. They are simply operating in their own business-bubble, and making moves to increase their player base. Just like everything else they do, we may not like it, but there sure isn't a law against it, and it would be classed as common in many other business sectors.
Your example of Planet is not 'apples to apples', as Planet sell a brand, and need to maintain a positive profile in a global industry, and to do that you have to strive to get along with everyone and be seen to further the common good. These guys don't operate in that same category.

My second point is that the Delta Force model works. If you believe that they give their first time players a terrible experience and put them off for good (I have heard this a lot, and even said it myself) then what does that say about their marketing model?

If they are able to spend 20 years packing paintball fields and making them very successful businesses (more than most), without retaining any customers, then I believe that makes their marketing model even more impressive - bordering on miraculous actually. Are they really able to find new people to shoot 1,000,000 balls per week? Really? Wow! How come the UK industry isn't one of the healthiest on the planet? I think it's far more likely that they do retain many of their clients. With that said, and the plethora of threads on your site with people scratchin' their heads and wondering how to expand the game at grass-roots, it makes me wonder why people think that they 'don't care about paintball at all'. If nothing else, if I was earning half a mil per year from Paintball, I would care an awful lot about it. There is a lot to be learned fron the Delta Force model. It may not be perfect, but it's the most effective one I have seen in my 25 year tenure.

I get that you don't like DF, and why. I don't like Smart Parts, and you know why, but I never thought they were bad businessmen, or didn't care about paintball, etc.

Come on Missy, are you trying to tell me or at least imply that as long companies or individuals don't break the law it then completelty legitimises them?
It doesn't, it may not be against a law but it's damned well duplicitous and sharp practice.

The fact they used this deception to promote themselves is most certainly unethical and is in my opinion, sharp practice.
Maybe I'm being naive here in believing people should have an ethical consideration when interfacing with the public and owe them at least some honest information.

I'd hate to think I'd ever sell my soul to the devil for money for a few extra quid in my pocket and if you think I'm preaching something I haven't done?
A few months ago I told one of my customers to fuhk off and take his advertising with him.
Even though this pr!hk was the biggest account [oops I somehow added an 'a', 'c' and 'o' into the previous word] I had on this site in terms of money per month, I would not tolerate his money because of his sharp practices, he was unprofessional and a lying prihk.
His forum on this site was inundated with examples of bad customer service and in some cases, I had to delete posts for him because the attack was so vitriolic.
And so, did I cut my nose off to spite my face in telling him to stuff his business up his big fat ass?
Maybe so in a financial sense but I tell ya something, there's no way I woulda felt comfortable taking his money when I knew damned well some of the cr@p he'd indulged himself in .. there comes a time when you have to make a valued judgment and have at least some recourse to the ethical side of things ... I doubt somehow those people over at DF would have any problems accommodating anyone as long as the money was there regardless of what they might have been up to.
I concede they make money and do a lot business but if that were the only value system I judged people by then I'd consider myself a fraud and of little moral fibre.
I ain't been an angel in my past, far from it but I don't steal things like that jeff abbott scumbag, and I don't deceive people to make money .. and this gives me the right to judge and consequently criticise them.

 

[Missy-Q]

Come on Missy, are you trying to tell me or at least imply that as long companies or individuals don't break the law it then completelty legitimises them?
It doesn't, it may not be against a law but it's damned well duplicitous and sharp practice.

The fact they used this deception to promote themselves is most certainly unethical and is in my opinion, sharp practice.
Maybe I'm being naive here in believing people should have an ethical consideration when interfacing with the public and owe them at least some honest information.

I'd hate to think I'd ever sell my soul to the devil for money for a few extra quid in my pocket and if you think I'm preaching something I haven't done?
A few months ago I told one of my customers to fuhk off and take his advertising with him.
Even though this pr!hk was the biggest account [oops I somehow added an 'a', 'c' and 'o' into the previous word] I had on this site in terms of money per month, I would not tolerate his money because of his sharp practices, he was unprofessional and a lying prihk.
His forum on this site was inundated with examples of bad customer service and in some cases, I had to delete posts for him because the attack was so vitriolic.
And so, did I cut my nose off to spite my face in telling him to stuff his business up his big fat ass?
Maybe so in a financial sense but I tell ya something, there's no way I woulda felt comfortable taking his money when I knew damned well some of the cr@p he'd indulged himself in .. there comes a time when you have to make a valued judgment and have at least some recourse to the ethical side of things ... I doubt somehow those people over at DF would have any problems accommodating anyone as long as the money was there regardless of what they might have been up to.
I concede they make money and do a lot business but if that were the only value system I judged people by then I'd consider myself a fraud and of little moral fibre.
I ain't been an angel in my past, far from it but I don't steal things like that jeff abbott scumbag, and I don't deceive people to make money .. and this gives me the right to judge and consequently criticise them.

I don't think you're naive Pete, but you're exhibiting 'Old School thinking', and applying that to todays market. I agree with your sentiments 100%, strong ethics and an admirable moral-core can really slow down your earning potential these days...

I could argue that your issue should not be with DF, provided they are operating inside the law. I don't like coaching in paintball, but the issue is that coaching is permitted, so there's no point hating on the coaches.

Personally I think it would be ironic is DF were actually the field that showed others how to market their businesses successfully, especially if that strategy impacted DF's own numbers, but that's not likely to happen unless people understand that they are, for the most part, doing it right, and stop with the righteous indignation and pitchforks every time their name comes up.
Every time I see other fields complain about them, I think "No Way - DF are still kicking ass, and people are still whining about it instead of stepping up their own game."

To get back on topic:
If I join the UKPBA, do I get access to their database?
In the case of litigation against our industry, could those 500,000 names be of some use, seeing as they did sign up to be members of an organisation?
Do the UKPBA have more members than the UKPSF?
Has anyone actually reached out to DF about this?

 

[ses_paintball]

Why don't you lot just ask Errol......