A must read - PA rule change for the 2005 season

[Raffles]

The only way to stop cheating 100% is to remove the rules!

Simple as that.

You can 'reduce' the level of cheating by bringing in devices to help catch people when they do cheat - but, unless the penalties for cheating are greater then people will always risk it.

Take a simple thing like 'speeding' (in your car!). Everybody I know has done over 70 on the motorway - yet that is the legal limit. Most people still drive at around 80-90. If the law stated that anyone found doing over 70 was instantly banned for 12 months - then that would slow a lot of people down a bit.

Trouble is, all these 'banned' speeders would then drive while banned.

So, while it's good to have 'laws' - they are useless unless they can be policed properly. Many people simply see it as a challenge (a bit like 'lets see how much we can wind up Mad Dog today').

If you give something to someone and tell them 'it is unbreakable' - they will try their hardest to break it - human nature.

So - the answer to all cheatinig problems : Either remove the rules or police them better (therby, creating much stiffer penalities).

End of really.

BTW - it's only cheating if you get caught!

 

[KitsuneAndy]

The main problem I can see with "relaxing" any of the ROF rules is that some people will always want to cheat to gain an advantage. If we take away or relax the ROF rules to allow more modes/faster rates then the people who are prepared to cheat to win are going to be more likely to look at velocity ramping than ROF ramping, which is going to end up in a lot worse of a situation we're in now.

All we need is for some of the organisations to work together and actually invest in some effective technology. As people have stated above, it is possible to ref these things with well trained refs and the right equipment.

 

[Rosie]

Originally posted by Ben Frain
Full auto capped at 15BPS. As crazy as that may seem I think it's the only way forward.

That is definately not the way forward.
And if it were to happen, then it should not be 15bps, it should be lowered to something like 12- if you have the advantage of not having to pull the trigger, then you should be hampered by it being slower.

again we have the problem of this is only a half-solution; like ramping, it is still not fully solving the cheating problem. I fear that if we did move towards full-auto that like ramping a solution for cheating would still not be found, & we'd just be stuck with it; with no one doing anything serious about it. we probably would not go back to semi-auto again, because more time would be spent developing stuff to police the full-auto velocity/bps than would be spent thinking how we could end cheating in semi-auto; exactly as we are doing now with ramping.

again, the thing about safety- if one went off in the safe-area, despite maybe the pull being shorter, then what damage could it do. & if a full-auto marker (as apposed to semi) was used in a crime, then watch paintball go down the pan, it would be gone like that


& the tagging/lockable grip thing. if it could be made to work (very possible), & if someone would be willing to spend the time & extra organisation (would be difficult, think of the time it would take, on top of registering each player, you'd have to hand-test each marker- would mean a lot more staff)

what about asking each player to get his marker tested & tagged by a company/shop before the tournament, as opposed to it having to be done actually at the tournament?
but would this increase the propensity of cheating eg: biased companies doing their own team's markers?

& the lockable grip may not be workable on all markers, eg: what about some older angels which need to be turned on then have the safety turned off by pressing the back-button. maybe the grips could be locked in the chrono-tent, and opened again at the end of each game. but again think of how much extra time this would take.

i feel the lockable grip is a lot better idea than ideas of the tourney organiser supplying their own boards/chips, or hoppers- as it is only a piece of plastic as opposed to an expensive microchip, or expensive hoppers/batteries.

its really complicated what sounds like a good idea, then you have to think of all the other niggling problems like which series would take the jump & start using lockable grips?
would it take a lot of extra time locking/hand checking each marker as this would definately affect who would take up the idea

really really not trying to put it down its the most workable idea I've heard (15bps auto, you idiot!) just trying to think how it could be made to work

sorry, was a bit long

 

[TJ Lambini]

Originally posted by Rosie



i feel the lockable grip is a lot better idea than ideas of the tourney organiser supplying their own boards/chips, or hoppers- as it is only a piece of plastic as opposed to an expensive microchip, or expensive hoppers/batteries.

Aside, from the myriad other problems with this lockable grip idea, please can you explain one simple thing to me, cos I am obviously a little bit dumb:

How exactly does it impact on cheats that are activated by combination trigger pulls?

 

[robtattoo]

Lets sack it all off & use water bombs

 

[Ben Frain]

Originally posted by Rosie
That is definately not the way forward.
And if it were to happen, then it should not be 15bps, it should be lowered to something like 12- if you have the advantage of not having to pull the trigger, then you should be hampered by it being slower.

again we have the problem of this is only a half-solution; like ramping, it is still not fully solving the cheating problem. I fear that if we did move towards full-auto that like ramping a solution for cheating would still not be found, & we'd just be stuck with it; with no one doing anything serious about it. we probably would not go back to semi-auto again, because more time would be spent developing stuff to police the full-auto velocity/bps than would be spent thinking how we could end cheating in semi-auto; exactly as we are doing now with ramping.

again, the thing about safety- if one went off in the safe-area, despite maybe the pull being shorter, then what damage could it do. & if a full-auto marker (as apposed to semi) was used in a crime, then watch paintball go down the pan, it would be gone like that


& the tagging/lockable grip thing. if it could be made to work (very possible), & if someone would be willing to spend the time & extra organisation (would be difficult, think of the time it would take, on top of registering each player, you'd have to hand-test each marker- would mean a lot more staff)

what about asking each player to get his marker tested & tagged by a company/shop before the tournament, as opposed to it having to be done actually at the tournament?
but would this increase the propensity of cheating eg: biased companies doing their own team's markers?

& the lockable grip may not be workable on all markers, eg: what about some older angels which need to be turned on then have the safety turned off by pressing the back-button. maybe the grips could be locked in the chrono-tent, and opened again at the end of each game. but again think of how much extra time this would take.

i feel the lockable grip is a lot better idea than ideas of the tourney organiser supplying their own boards/chips, or hoppers- as it is only a piece of plastic as opposed to an expensive microchip, or expensive hoppers/batteries.

its really complicated what sounds like a good idea, then you have to think of all the other niggling problems like which series would take the jump & start using lockable grips?
would it take a lot of extra time locking/hand checking each marker as this would definately affect who would take up the idea

really really not trying to put it down its the most workable idea I've heard (15bps auto, you idiot!) just trying to think how it could be made to work

Rosie,

Sorry, but it is not I that is the idiot. Just 'cause Robbo and I had an enjoyable war of words last week doesn't mean it's open season on me!

Are you so ignorant that you don't realise that a lot of very intelligent people in the industry have not already spent a LOT of time and money doing R+D on the issue of policing ROF?

After all that R+D and general scratching of heads across the board do you know what physical device or workable/economically viable process they have come up with that can stop the gun cheast? Zip, nano, nothing. Closest thing is the NPPL robot but even that is fighting an up hill battle and is too costly for the average tournament.

You need an independant device that could measure a players trigger pulls to the amount of paint leaving the barrel whilst he/she plays - such a device does not yet exist. This means there is no way to police 'semi'. I haven't seen 'semi' since the first year I played (2003). Since then it has becomes a distant memory seen as often at your average tournie as a phoenix or Dodo. If you think otherwise you are deluding yourself (seriously, how long have you been playing? If it's less that 2 years you haven't witnessed semi) or have never seen 'semi' to know what it looks and sounds like.

Rosie, have you ever actually played a tournament with ramping? Despite all the bad press ramping gets (and I will concede there is a far greater likelihood of getting some extra loving) everyone is equal. A higher ROF stands out like a sore thumb and it is very easy to test and catch the offending guns (either on field as the player uses it or with a seperate test before/after the game).

I would rather have 'true' semi but it simply isn't possible. I would like a level playing field however and ramping capped ROF at least gives you that, certainly more so that the current 'semi' environment.

 

[Rosie]

open season

Originally posted by Ben Frain
I would rather have 'true' semi but it simply isn't possible. I would like a level playing field however and ramping capped ROF at least gives you that, certainly more so that the current 'semi' environment.

fine, not saying I understand everything

ramping/full auto. ramping is the lesser of 2 evils, if we go fully auto the entire game will change, at least ramping, you have to move your fingers a little. full-auto isnt the way forward.
I know semi isnt workable at the moment, I'm not thick. but if we go to full-auto we probably won't move back to semi, which was the goal of ramping- equalize the cheats, while working on a way to police semi.


i'm not saying nothing is being done to stop the cheats, but it's all behind closed doors & we arent seeing much being tried out, or many new ideas, i respect anyone who suggests something new, a new angle, but not something so radical as full-auto, yeah i dont fully understand the impact that would have on the game, but it is a big step, too big
and no series would be persuaded to use full-auto anyway.


stuff it, lets say fire whatever bps you like, but you're on limited paint.

 

[Rosie]

Originally posted by TJ Lambini
Aside, from the myriad other problems with this lockable grip idea, please can you explain one simple thing to me, cos I am obviously a little bit dumb:

How exactly does it impact on cheats that are activated by combination trigger pulls?

I don't know, I'd be interested to hear some ideas on that

but having full-auto to stop cheating is kinda like saying 'to stop drug fuelled crime, lets just give out free crack'

nooooooooooooooooooooooo
ooo

oo

o

there's got to be another way, somewhere.
instead of just putting down ideas try to come up with ways they could be improved, or even think of something yourself (Controversial)

I've been playing 4 years btw, no havent played ramping tourneys through choice.
It's one of the reasons we didnt play campaign.
I dont have ramping on my marker, and i won't have it put on.

 

[Rob - Nott'm Tremmor]

Originally posted by Ben Frain
You need an independant device that could measure a players trigger pulls to the amount of paint leaving the barrel whilst he/she plays - such a device does not yet exist.

Just read this and started me thinking ( a dangerous thing , I know ).

Would it not be possible to make up a counter system that works on a micro switch under the trigger ( like the old angels ) and a magic eye that either clips on the end of the barrel to count balls coming out ( although you'd have to allow a small error for chopped balls in the barrel , or hopper run outs ) , or ( if tournaments enforced it ) a simple eye that counts the number of times the bolt shoots forward.

Compare the number of trigger pulls , to the number of bolt movements , and you have an answer. Surely the electronics genenii amongst us could manage to get it to show a '+' or '-' for shots compared to pulls on a display? Through a game with a cheat mode , the difference would surely be in the 100's , making it obvious if the player has cheated. True semi could therefore be policed..??

I'm sure minimal marker modifictaion would be needed to do this , and I'm sure all the electronics needed could be made small enough and lite enough to clip onto the underside of the gun. Surely not to expensive either.

I'll claim copyright to this , just in case it is a good idea , lol.

What do you reckon? Would it work , or rather could it work?

 

[Ben Frain]

What is to stop the player using the device cheating it?

You need an independant device surely (e.g. Ref held)?

Or am I missing something?