Elf and Safety

[Return of the Silver Fox]

And then there's Bolters situation where you need more than one, and the costing goes out the window.

It wouldn't surprise me if you had the super one, with the extra band and extreme hi vis, you would not be allowed to wear it in a standard situation.

If your job involves going to more than one workplace you'd definately be better of getting the higher standard as it covers all eventualities.

My PPE budget per year is around £500k. You can bet I look for every opportunity to reduce it and my favourite is always 'stop specifying stuff you don't need'.

 

[Return of the Silver Fox]

...And so John, after reading these posts, it would seem you are not conceding the Health and Safety people have a case to answer and are in no way responsible preferring to deflect the blame toward either the industry or the press?

Pete,

I know there are plenty, and I mean plenty, of consultants out there that haven't got a clue. Their are also plenty of people who ban stuff in the name of Health and Safety just because they can't be bothered doing something.

The problem is that government wants to get rid of legislation that is perfectly OK based on myth, half truths and misunderstanding. I hear people, on a daily basis, saying 'elf & safety won't let you do that' because of some bollox they read in the paper.

The British chamber of commerce are no better. They recently published a 'review' of health and safety in business. Its two main points were;

- Low risk workplaces should be exempt from H&S legislation such as risk assessment - how do you know it's low risk until you assess it?
- The government should act to stop europe applying H&S legislation when we have our own - all European legislation is applied through HSE and the government does this through parliament. There is no duplication.

In a way it's the same as paintball. Ask anybody who's had limited or no contact with the sport and they will generally have a view very different to those who contribute to the forum and play the sport. Paintballers are all wannabe soldiers according to popular myth

I've given up telling people I play paintball and I am a H&S manager. I tell them I test shampoo on rabbits eyes and force beagles to smoke, believe me I get a better response

 

[Tom Allen]

I remember an advert that was on quite a while ago, where a woman walked into an office, slipped and fell injuring her knee. The ad was for one of those no win no fee sharks that rape and pillage within the legal system that we have created.
The thing that stuck in my mind was, she was wearing tiny shoes that were probably an H&S issue due the the "largeness of her frame", it reminded me of a hippo in ballet shoes. This was the example this company gave for a rock solid case where you could claim thousands, because you were basically thick and couldn't see where you were walking, and H&S would back this as there should have been warnings for her to see. There should have been a warning from the shoe shop, saying, if you're fat and dull don't buy these shoes.

 

[Return of the Silver Fox]

I remember an advert that was on quite a while ago, where a woman walked into an office, slipped and fell injuring her knee. The ad was for one of those no win no fee sharks that rape and pillage within the legal system that we have created.
The thing that stuck in my mind was, she was wearing tiny shoes that were probably an H&S issue due the the "largeness of her frame", it reminded me of a hippo in ballet shoes. This was the example this company gave for a rock solid case where you could claim thousands, because you were basically thick and couldn't see where you were walking, and H&S would back this as there should have been warnings for her to see. There should have been a warning from the shoe shop, saying, if you're fat and dull don't buy these shoes.

Tom,

I deal with these claims regularly and there aren't that many that are successful. The problem is that solicitors send companies details of the claim (usually at the 11th hour) and then provide a list of information they require such as risk assessments, maintainance records, PPE etc. The problem is that most companies don't realise they don't need them in many cases or get scared to death and just pay up.
Insurers will weigh up the cost of taking it to court. Even with cast iron defence they look at the ability to recover costs. Its quite common for insurers to offer to pay the solicitors costs providing they drop the claim. Its a licence to print money.

BTW the HSE are unlikely to show an interest as there aren't enough of them and their busy with higher risk industries and hazards. I, however, will have a photo of the soles of your shoes before you've hit the floor

 

[Donk]

If more HSO's took your outlook then many of us Grunts wouldn't view you as the traffic wardens of the building game... I have seen several occasions where one specific HSO would argue anypoint he decided on & not listen to a word anyone on the ground said. Here is 2 examples:

The firm I used to work for was an insulation firm so COSHH was rammed down our throats from day 1 so we didn't injure ourselves by accident.
In comes new HSO man, who immediately decides that to insulate a loft with fibreglass insulation rolls you need to wear: Hard hat, high vis, goggles, breathing mask (ffp2/3), gloves, boiler suit/full length trousers & jumper & safety boots... So we all ended up sweating, de hydrated & one guy fainted, fell through a ceiling before he would concede it is to much to wear in a small space. So he gave in on the hard hat & boiler suits but thats all!

Then he decided that the wall insulators needed all the same gear + ear defenders. Then he decided that when climbing a ladder you must have 3 points of contact at all times, so left leg, right leg, left hand oh then he realised u need a friggin drill so you cannot actually do it! So he gave us full body harnesses to be clipped to the rung as we climb by a 300mm caribina, so as you climb down it hits you in the nuts every other rung! Then he decided every time you erect a ladder (11 times ish per semi house) it need to be secured to the wall by 2 eye bolts & a strap (people love them drilled in their house... not).
So now you have a ladder strapped left & right to the wall and you clipped to it, now anyone who has used a ladder for more than say 5 times in their life knows sometimes a ladder may slip left/right slightly as you climb it if the ground is not concrete. But with the straps on what happens is it twists from the wall onto one stile then falls parallel to the house with you clipped to it so you cant jump off near the ground!

Needless to say that multi million pound firm went under within 18 months of the new "Health & Safety" rules which were by all accounts his personal views not Government legislation?

But we all thought it was the law.

 

[niallist]

Silver fox makes some excellent points, Donk also gives a brilliant example of the kind of idiot that gives H&S a bad name.

I can only echo Silver foxes posts as he is clearly better placed to argue the defence. My father was a H&S consultant for 30 years, I helped him with his business and also have worked on some major corporate building sites for the last 10 years myself (Bovis, ISG etc.) so I have a fair understanding of the madness that can take hold, he hated it, (the madness).

And as someone else said earlier, a lot of H&S "laws" are usually put in place by the lawyers of big firms trying to cover their backs against litigation. they couldn't really give a monkeys if you break your back falling off a ladder at an unsafe height.

Pop quiz: What is considered "working at height"?

 

[joshypop]

4 meters?

 

[Return of the Silver Fox]

1st rung of the ladder, the old 2m rule went with the Work at Height regulations. More people are injured below the old 2m rule although the consequences of higher falls are obviously more significant.

Ladders are a classic example of the misinterpretation of the regs. They have been banned left right and centre with no justification and building sites are amongst the worse for draconian rules.

HSE guidance is quite clear, they even put pictures in -->http://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg402.pdf . Short duration work is half an hour in one position and three points of contact should include leaning your body against the ladder.

As I said earlier PPE costs money, has to fit the user and is often a poor control as end users either don't wear it or use it incorrectly.

Gloves are a great example of misused PPE. Leather gloves are often issued on sites to protect against sharp objects and provide cut resistance. Leather gloves have very poor cut resistance (think about it - they're cured skin) and don't last long yet ill informed supervisors hand them out like sweets. The worst cases are often with chemicals. If the permeation properties of a glove are wrong you will INCREASE exposure. Think about it, if you work with a toxic chemical and spill it on your hand you'll immediatelly wash them. Put on a pair of gloves which allow the chemical to permeate and you'll wear them all day without realising you've been exposed (until it's too late).

The sad thing is that many safety advisors forget they are there to add value and get the job done with the minimum of risk and cost. Make it too onerous and people will take short cuts and you'll never recognise this fact til someone is significantly hurt. Donk, I'd suggest your company was failing anyway. If it can't recognise and deal with incompetance it would have been endemic throughout the organisation.

 

[Tom Allen]

is this you.

 

[Return of the Silver Fox]

is this you.

Probably nearer this (note: there is swearing in it for you sensitive souls)

Just read that Vic Reeves is doing a comedy called The Fun Police based on a H&S organisation. On the plus side if it's anything like catterick it won't get many viewers or be on long.