EUtopia?

[duffistuta]

Originally posted by Robbo
Some of this rehtoric kills me, when we talk about hard liners, extremeists and so on, what are we really talking about?

When we mention the fact that not all people are like this, in fact the majority of people, get along quite nicely disregarding ethnicity or race, for the most part it's all true but........those extremists, those nasty hard liners, that sub-human group of terrorists and fanatics are us, they come from us, they are borne not from a subspecies but emerge from the collective.
Extreme?
Yes
Inhuman in behaviour?
Yes again but nevertheless they are still us.

For the most, people like to get along but it denies human nature to suggest we can all live in some blueprint Utopia.
Conflict will inevitably erupt along whatever fracture lines are apparent or convenient.

Absolutely, in exactly the same way that paedophiles, rapists and murderers come from us - they are socially abhorrent and need dealing with, just like terrorists. Of course we all have base, aggressive impulses, but surely the unique thing about humans is that we have a moral compass, and the point is not to succumb to these feelings but to deal with them. That self-awareness is what sets us apart from other species.

It's not about a blueprint utopia, it's about taking responsibility for your own actions - if you can't control your anti-social impulses, be they toward kids, women or Christians - then you get dealt with by the law.

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by duffistuta
Absolutely, in exactly the same way that paedophiles, rapists and murderers come from us - they are socially abhorrent and need dealing with, just like terrorists. Of course we all have base, aggressive impulses, but surely the unique thing about humans is that we have a moral compass, and the point is not to succumb to these feelings but to deal with them. That self-awareness is what sets us apart from other species.

It's not about a blueprint utopia, it's about taking responsibility for your own actions - if you can't control your anti-social impulses, be they toward kids, women or Christians - then you get dealt with by the law.

I don't see paedophilia as a working metaphor here and is an unfair one since Yugoslavia certainly exampled what lies in most of us whereas I don't see no wanton outbreak of abuse against children in Belgium.
One I suggest lays latent in most of us, the other is an illness, an abberation that has no practical value in society or human existence whereas aggression and self potectionism has proven vital in times past for particular races and or ethnic groups to survive.

It makes me laugh when I think all these apects of human behaviour can become sanctioned in times of war which implies the morailty of these acts is like shifting sands but..... under no circumstances is sexually abusing children acceptable.
You get my point?

 

[duffistuta]

I do get your point, and I agree that under no circumstances is ethnic cleansing acceptable either...I mean, is it worse to sexually abuse a child than 'just' to kill one?

Paedophilia may indeed be an illness and as such not a good example, but I think rape and murder are, so leaving pedos to one side the point still stands: the people who got 'caught up' in ethnic cleansing are like the concentration camp commandants who were 'just doing their job', and neither is to be excused. It is about self-government, self-control - perhaps paedophiles are incapable of this due to their 'illness'.

 

[Buddha 3]

I actually find myself in agreement with Pete here.
In the past (not on this website) I have been flamed for stating that war is actually the only legacy mankind has. We have no other heritage besides warfare. Ethnicity, economics, religion is all just another excuse for a few to impose their will on the many and use these masses to impose their will on even greater masses. It has nothing to do with common sense, but everything with our base instincts. Even the greatest peace loving tree hugger would have no qualms about picking up a gun if they were put in the same situation as, for example, the inhabitants of the Warsaw ghetto were when the uprising started there.
War is something that all cultures share, no matter how different they appear to be on the surface. There is no culture that has not been shaped by conquest and slaughter of some kind. The Buddhists are renowned for being peacefull, yet at the same time they have the über ass kicking shao lin monks. Sure, they learned to fight after being persecuted and killed, but they have been involved in many a inter-Buddhist wars that were really about land and property. Cultures that have taken centuries to develop can be destroyed in mere minutes. Our destructive side is far more present than our creative side. ****, every great invention has made us go "Hey, that's nice. Can we kill people with it?". It took only a few years before the airplane got festooned with guns and bombs, military aviation advances far more rapidly than civilian aviation. The same goes for the combustion engine. It only took a few years before the introduction of the armoured car to appear. The most effeicent guns are not employed for hunting, they are employed to kill people, those who are in essence like us.
What is your first reaction when someone does you wrong? Most of us have a first thought along the lines of "I'm gonna kick his ass!".

We are ALL capable of violence. Just look at what recently happened in Yugoslavia, just look at what happened in World War 2. By far the largest proportion of the people involved with the grizzly work of the endlösung were not fanatical nazis as we are made to believe nowadays, but were regular housedads in the Polizei Battalions. A good example is Polizei Battalion 101, which had an avarage age far greater than regular army units. These men were too old to serve on the frontlines, byt were conscripted anyway because of Germany's Total War mobilisation of the male population. So these were not the impressionable young men that were easily suckered in by the Nazi rethoric and propaganda, but experienced men in their thirties and forties. In fact, the percentage of men that were members of the NSDAP (The Nazi party) was lower in these battalions then it was in both the regular army and German society as a whole. So these people were not Nazi fanatics, yet they were capable of some of the most horrific acts imaginable. Yet they felt little to no regrets. They even took pictures of it all, and sent them home to their families. Those who say that the German people as a whole did not know are either misled by the current reading of history (which was created because it too disturbing to think that a moderate and educated people is capable of such acts), or they are telling lies. The German government put more effort into "the Jewish problem" than they put into fighting the war (which in a sick way I think we may be thankful for).

My point? Don't beat your own chest and think that you are better than those people who did the killings in Yugoslavia. They could just as easily have lived next door to you.

Oh yeah, the EU....what's that about?

 

[Buddha 3]

Originally posted by duffistuta
It is about self-government, self-control - perhaps paedophiles are incapable of this due to their 'illness'.

Are you aware of the fact that less than 20 years ago, being a paedophile was considered a sexual preference, just as homosexuality? And that the possession of child pornography was considered to be just as good/bad as regular porn?

Scary indeed....

 

[stongle]

well bum, since Duff has so eloquently put the rule of law post up (which was going to be my point).

Anyway back to the EU. It ain't the "Drugs that don't work", it's the sums. Cooking the books and having Social Welfare programmes and policies that were created on Acid ain't the basis for a solid and lasting Financial Union (and that's before we even get to the new EU States). Aside from that the Continentals do make damn fine beer, and you can't argue with that.

 

[Robbo]

I agree ethnic cleansing, rape etc is abhorrent, no matter what the circumstance but my original point still stands I believe, that is, governments, individuals, idealists, whoever, who try to tell me that by drawing a line to distinguish extremism from the masses in terms of solving an interracial or interethnicity problem is practically useless.
Whenever we have differing cultures or races, there will always be outright conflict or at the very least subdued and unexpressed intolerance.

Yugoslavia bought this to the surface across the social spectrum.

I think idealists and PC'ites would have us all believe we can live together in harmony, we can't, it's goes against human nature.

A much more practical strategy would be to recognise social, racial and religious disharmonies and deal with them in this way rather than trying to artificially sanitise something that can't be sanitised purely because some dick studied social sciences at uni and now thinks he /she has all the answers to the world's ills as they accept letters adressed to 'la la' land.

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by Buddha 3
I actually find myself in agreement with Pete here..........

Don't fight it mate, true enlightenment sometimes comes to us all at the most surprising of times.........

 

[duffistuta]

Originally posted by Robbo

A much more practical strategy would be to recognise social, racial and religious disharmonies and deal with them in this way rather than trying to artificially sanitise something that can't be sanitised

Problem is, I don't think there is any way of doing that (If there was a way to separate Newcastle fans from normal humanity, I'd be the first to sign up for it), and that's why we have laws and a police force and judicial system to enforce them.

 

[Ben Frain]

Originally posted by duffistuta
[BI don't expect you to do anything, I'm not calling you names - believe what you want to believe, but if you're making false or self-contradictory statements then I'm not going to just ignore them...claiming not to be racist but to agree with what the BNP stands for is like claiming to be a vegetarian while tucking into a beefburger. [/B]

Hello Kettle, I'm Mr Pot...

"Evil ****s, the lot of them, as is anyone who supports them..." Duffistuta, page 2 of the thread

Then you go on...

"...you are either.

A - A moron

or

B - A wilfully obstinate moron" Duffistuta, page 2 of the thread

And I'm self contradictory?

However, I concede I am being pedantic with that one and this tit for tat nit picking of each others post will do nothing for the discussion so please excuse my indulgence...

However, what you seem to totally by-pass is the following point. Just because I (or anyone else) agree with something (or even lots of things) a person or group of people says on one or more subjects doesn't mean I wholeheartdely endorse every single policy of desire they may harbour.

It is just convenient for you to lump and label anybody who doesn't subscribe to your views as part of some sub human borderline retarded group of cross burners that should never be listened to. I just think that attitude is wrong, that's all. I may not know the intracacies of the entire political spectrum but I know people and the bottom line is that different people who want different things aren't going to get along.

Now, I'm not saying I am happy about, I'm not saying it's right, but it is fact. No 'John Lennon' style rhetoric is going to convince me otherwise. If there are real historial/current examples to the contrary I'd love to hear them, it might give me a little more faith in human kind.

Essentially I believe this will be the same problem with the EU. One group of people want one thing, another group want another. It's not going to be a happy party.