NPPL Super 7..The real deal!!

[raehl]

Because...

Millenium is half the size. And I think after you factor taxes and all that in, Millenium refs get paid more in real dollars, but that's just a guess on my part.


And Headrock, while I agree you'd pay more for better reffing, I think the reality is that most of the teams who play PSP events are happy with what they get for the price they pay and DON'T want to pay more, especially at world cup - most teams are there because they want to play world cup, whether it's the epitome of athletic competition, or they place 16th or 80th, doesn't concern them much.

NPPL/PSP has not been run as a league for the best teams for quite some time now - it's run as a league for anyone who is willing to pay to enter for a chance to play the pros.


- Chris

 

[Wadidiz]

Because...

Originally posted by raehl
Millenium is half the size. And I think after you factor taxes and all that in, Millenium refs get paid more in real dollars, but that's just a guess on my part.


And Headrock, while I agree you'd pay more for better reffing, I think the reality is that most of the teams who play PSP events are happy with what they get for the price they pay and DON'T want to pay more, especially at world cup - most teams are there because they want to play world cup, whether it's the epitome of athletic competition, or they place 16th or 80th, doesn't concern them much.

NPPL/PSP has not been run as a league for the best teams for quite some time now - it's run as a league for anyone who is willing to pay to enter for a chance to play the pros.


- Chris

Millenium is half the size.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but with the exception of the WC the Mill events aren't that much smaller.

And I think after you factor taxes and all that in, Millenium refs get paid more in real dollars, but that's just a guess on my part.

With respect, wrong guess. Millennium refs are paid at all (with some few exceptions), they are provided with food and lodging. NPPL refs get $100 per day, lunch and drinks. I know the tax situation and that comes out being almost twice as much for NPPL refs.

...I think the reality is that most of the teams who play PSP events are happy with what they get for the price they pay...

It is really quite the other way. You seem to live in a whole different world than I. I haven't talked to a single person yet who is pleased with the status quo of PSP or who was pleased with the WC. Open up your eyes and read all the posts everywhere. (I think I've read maybe one or two posts by peeps who were satisfied with the Cup.)

And I don't recall you commenting on the refs who let hot guns onto the fields. TOTALLY UNACCEPTABLE BY ANY STRETCH OF THE IMAGINATION.

The upcoming event at Huntington Beach will show us whether or not players are willing to pay more for better all-round quality.

Steve

 

[headrock6]

Because...

Originally posted by raehl

And Headrock, while I agree you'd pay more for better reffing, I think the reality is that most of the teams who play PSP events are happy with what they get for the price they pay and DON'T want to pay more, especially at world cup - most teams are there because they want to play world cup, whether it's the epitome of athletic competition, or they place 16th or 80th, doesn't concern them much.


- Chris

Ok,lets break it down like this...This year there were 214 10 man teams at the cup...If you charged each team just $150 more(correct me if im wrong but that shouldnt break the bank) you have an extra $32,000...Are your tellling me that if PSP gauranteed that the money would go to improving reffing people would complain???

I dont think its so much that people dont want to pay for improvements,its that they arent informed about what will change with the extra money thier paying...If you took every team,locked em in a room and said were raising prices to get you all better reffing,and then actually went out and did it,they would get alot further along with the players than they have..

And it doesnt even have to be $150...Even if you just raised it say $100 and consistently put it into the reffing things could change...I personally dont believe they need the cash but if it was being put back into the league and not lining their pockets then its well worth it..

 

[raehl]

Re: Because...

But Millenium refs who arn't paid get reffing points, right? Or no?

On the different world note: You're assuming that the few serious tournament paintball players who spend time on web forums represent the people who pay to play PSP events. That is not the case. The "web forum" opinion represents only a small fraction of the players, and not the fraction that is quite content to pay their entry, play, go home, and then not worry about it. Most people are satisfied with world cup.

Hot guns: Indeed. This is why we need to spend money training refs so they don't do stupid stuff like that.


Yes, if fees go up, people will complain, or just simply less will come. As for getting everyone together in one room..... hah! Players can't be botherred to have a meeting.


Although I agree, an extra $150 would go a long way, and I certainly wouldn't complain.


- Chris

 

[Wadidiz]

Re: Re: Because...

Originally posted by raehl
But Millenium refs who arn't paid get reffing points, right? Or no?

On the different world note: You're assuming that the few serious tournament paintball players who spend time on web forums represent the people who pay to play PSP events. That is not the case. The "web forum" opinion represents only a small fraction of the players, and not the fraction that is quite content to pay their entry, play, go home, and then not worry about it. Most people are satisfied with world cup...- Chris

But Millenium refs who arn't paid get reffing points, right? Or no?

The Millennium refs get points, food and lodging (and maybe transportation paid to get to the tournament, I can't remember).

PSP refs get points, $100 per day, lunch, refreshment drinks and sometimes lodging. PSP refs come out ahead in most cases.

On the different world note: You're assuming that the few serious tournament paintball players who spend time on web forums represent the people who pay to play PSP events.

We can only wax anecdotal on these points. Neither you nor I have scientific statistics. I can talk about what I've read on forums plus quite a few people I've talked to or corresponded with. You could do the same. No conclusions can be drawn.

I'll reiterate: Millennium has 70+ team events and they do them right (but still with room for improvement). We will see if Chuck Hendsch and WDP can do it in America in a few weeks.

 

[raehl]

Well..

Only *TEAMS* who ref PSP get points. How much do millenium refs get paid if they don't want points? Anything? That's a HUGE difference in cost right there if PSP has to pay refs and millenium just makes teams do it for points.

You're going to have to get refs who will work when points are worthless to them, especially if you want quality refs who ref all year and are trained specifically for that purpose.


- Chris

 

[Wadidiz]

Well..

Originally posted by raehl
Only *TEAMS* who ref PSP get points. How much do millenium refs get paid if they don't want points? Anything? That's a HUGE difference in cost right there if PSP has to pay refs and millenium just makes teams do it for points.

You're going to have to get refs who will work when points are worthless to them, especially if you want quality refs who ref all year and are trained specifically for that purpose.


- Chris

How much do millenium refs get paid if they don't want points? Anything? That's a HUGE difference in cost right there if PSP has to pay refs and millenium just makes teams do it for points.

It probably varies depending on the organizer. I got paid $50 per day plus drinks and food at the last two Millenniums. At those events (with about 70 teams) they didn't need more than one or two independents like me. The rest were team refs and let me add very quickly: the reffing was some of the best in the world, superb (with one or two mistakes here and there, of course).

I believe that team reffing is the only solution that is econonically viable until PB grows more and until PRO gets more trained refs. Again, Millennium proves it can be done. And PSP's best refs at this point in time (according to my understanding) are team refs such as GZ.

I will re-iterate what I've discussed with you before: make reffing one event per season mandatory as a prerequisite for getting series points and institute the training and organizational programs I have been putting forth and it can work in the American major leagues IMHO.

Steve

 

[raehl]

Just because I like getting myself in trouble so much...

I think US teams have too little pride in their league for team reffing to work over here like it does in Europe. I think it's part US vs. European culture in general (Americans tend to be apathetic and believe everything should be given to them, Europeans seem to have a better "help build the society" perspective - and yes, I've lived on both continents, I'm not just pulling this out my posterior ), and part US paintball vs. European paintball. What does Millenium do to make team reffing work that PSP does not? I think it comes down to the teams themselves. Your system may work quite well in Europe, but I don't think it stands a snowball's chance in hell here.


- Chris

 

[headrock6]

Just because I like getting myself in trouble so much...

Originally posted by raehl
I think US teams have too little pride in their league for team reffing to work over here like it does in Europe. I think it's part US vs. European culture in general (Americans tend to be apathetic and believe everything should be given to them, Europeans seem to have a better "help build the society" perspective - and yes, I've lived on both continents, I'm not just pulling this out my posterior ), and part US paintball vs. European paintball. What does Millenium do to make team reffing work that PSP does not? I think it comes down to the teams themselves. Your system may work quite well in Europe, but I don't think it stands a snowball's chance in hell here.


- Chris

Well u just hit the nail on the head Chris...Ive said it time and time again,PRIDE is a huge factor in how teams ref...Now there are some instances of a few U.S. teams that have showed that they do have some but your rightmost teams just dont give a ****....While ive heard GZ and SC Ironmen are superb,i heard Dynasty at Amsterdam this year were atrocious..But to counter the problem,heres a solution...Dont let em ref again if they suck...Have someone independently rate their judging and rate them at the end of the tourney..Alot of the top teams rely heavily on the Reffing points here and to not give em a chance to have em would hurt alot of them..

But as Wadidiz just said..Teams reffing is the only viable solution at the moment...Its worked well here(in some instances),but until the PRO is ready to take off id be more than satisfied with it..

 

[Wadidiz]

Thank you, Headrock. But, alas, the boy ain't gonna get it. Whatever he's got is burnt deeply into his EEPROM and ain't going nowhere.

Steve