Pump guns or semis?

[Taperunner]

Re: Re: Re: Re: I Think therefore I am...

Originally posted by Richard Kirke (DUPS Rocket) UK
Probably a helluva lot more than me... I just post here a lot (ask Baca).

Hey,

don't put yourself down man. You know things and you speak up that is more then most of the pb community does am I afraid.

Originally posted by Richard Kirke (DUPS Rocket) UK
My impression is that the majority of people like paintball as it is played at the moment.

That has always been the case, people was happie with the 12 grams 10 shooters, people where happie in the woods with camo, peaple where happie with pump and tournament paintball, people seam to be happie all the time. Those who quit walks silently away and still the sport developes all the time. The only problem is that it ain't the players who's driving this bus!

No am not a member of EPA, can anybody become a member or do I have to have some qualifications? If so then they wouldn't dream of take me in

I should really switch to golf instead

 

[Richard Kirke (DUPS Rocket) UK]

Originally posted by Taperunner
1-don't put yourself down man. You know things and you speak up that is more then most of the pb community does am I afraid.

2-No am not a member of EPA, can anybody become a member or do I have to have some qualifications? If so then they wouldn't dream of take me in

1- It's OK mate, I have been playing tourney ball for 3 years now and only at a Nov level. I don't really know that much about paintball. But I like to think that what I say makes sense (most of the time). Not putting myslef down, but the opinions of the more experienced people in the game are probably worth more.

2- EPA as far as I am aware the only qualification is that you have to want to be a memeber and your team intends to play 1 or more mileniums.

Yeah the industry is in the driving seat, people may have been happy with the old technology, but when new things come arround a lot of people buy them. I don't remeber when the Timmy came out everyone saying "No that's too fast, I don't want one of those". As the game has become more technological it has grown and players have gone along with it.

What you are proposing is beyond radical! It's totally against the grain of the way every baller sees paintball going. That isn't to say that it is a bad thing, but you will have to go a long way to persuade the average baller that your ideas are valid.

Dynasty won't compete in a pump speedball tournament, neither will any of the X-ball teams. Nexus and RL probably wont come on board either. But if you can persuade the right people to help you, and you can get a tournament off the ground then who knows. If speedball pump-ball turns out to be exciting to watch and play then you might just have something.

I'd guess that the sort of people to speak to would be distibutors/makers of pump guns and the UKPSF (or equivalent wherever you want to run it). Set up a small event, see if there is enough interest to take it further.

Richard

P.s. Golf? There's no money or TV coverage in golf, man that's dull... no wait, hang on a moment

 

[Richard Kirke (DUPS Rocket) UK]

Originally posted by Tyger
Richard : On the WDR video on "Gauntlet" target runs, I have my count at 8-9 BPS with a Phantom, sustained. That's with the autotrigger (Slamfire).

Yeah, I knew it was something like that. My point (on page 3) stands, even with a pump you can shoot a butload of paint.

Richard

 

[Baca Loco]

Originally posted by Tyger
1--But it's also because not a lot happens in a 10 minute paintball game. Most of the 'action' is hard to follow on the small screen, if not downright boring.

2--Paintball players don't move a lot. With 15 BPS flying at them, they don't come out of bunkers much. And when they do, it's all snapshooting. This is a spectacular skill, but it is not good TV unless you can improve the "gun cam". But for the most part, it's sit and sling. This is bad TV.
2A--What we mostly do is sit behind bunkers, and shoot paint. That's the technology, tha's the adaptations to the technologys.

3--Slowing down the ROF would open the field to move around. Your point of less skilled players now being able to play competitevly is one that I don't buy. What you would find is the skills would change, as they have to compensate for higher ROF.

4--Paintball players are not athletes, no matter how much we pretend to be. That's a given. But, perhaps that should change? I mean, if we're gonna be serious about making paintball a sport, shouldn't we the players treat it as such?

1--you're behind the curve on this one, Tyg. You are predicating a view based on the average player and team and even that is less true today than it was two or three years ago. Field design changes and competitive pressure from above is forcing everyone--who is playing at the national level--to play a much more aggressive game than used to be the norm.
2--the best players and teams don't sit. Even gun skills are changing.
2A--this simply isn't true anymore. Not for good teams or teams trying to elevate their game. Maybe in Wisconsin . . .
3--the best players already move. Your perception of this issue is predicated, IMHO , on the faulty premise that players don't move.
4--I think it already is changing because X-Ball puts vastly more physical demands on the players and they either respond or get left behind. (There have been quite a few Pros left by the wayside during this transition.)

 

[longy]

Originally posted by Richard Kirke (DUPS Rocket) UK
Yeah, I knew it was something like that. My point (on page 3) stands, even with a pump you can shoot a butload of paint.

You can get through a lot of paint with pumps.
When we did the tourney scene in '89 we used to take out 1200 per game and the heavy shooter used to grab the odd pot from your mate

When we walked on to a site (rec ball) I used to split 2 box's of paint with the new team member and shoot 3/4 of the 2 box's..
They only fell for it once tho'...

I had a budd orr with a slam fire kit, used to get mistaken for an F4 Illustrator all the time.

yuk yuk

 

[JoseDominguez]

Isn't there room for all of us? In the UK all games (bar campaign/s****horpe) are basically played on sup-air fields next to a rec-sight. Couldn't we combine the two and have a larger area pump/woodland bit going at the same time as the main tourney? with series 2k4 ditching woodland completely there will be teams who'd like the opportunity.

 

[Tyger]

Lotta good points here :

Originally posted by Baca Loco
1--you're behind the curve on this one, Tyg. You are predicating a view based on the average player and team and even that is less true today than it was two or three years ago. Field design changes and competitive pressure from above is forcing everyone--who is playing at the national level--to play a much more aggressive game than used to be the norm.

2--the best players and teams don't sit. Even gun skills are changing.

2A--this simply isn't true anymore. Not for good teams or teams trying to elevate their game. Maybe in Wisconsin . . .

3--the best players already move. Your perception of this issue is predicated, IMHO , on the faulty premise that players don't move.

4--I think it already is changing because X-Ball puts vastly more physical demands on the players and they either respond or get left behind. (There have been quite a few Pros left by the wayside during this transition.)

1 : I'm basing my opinion on a few things, including footage I've seen from World Cup '02 of the Am. finals. A lot of sit and wait, and the occasional dash.

2 : From all I've expirenced, they do. Hey, if I'm wrong it just means I need out get out and look more.

2A : Again, from what I've seen, the players sit and shoot. IT's all about getting the "Faster gun" to throw more paint. This has been the focus of the industry and the players for a decade. More shooting, faster ROF. I personally htink it's the "Magpie / Raccoon Syndrome". It's shiny, it must be good.

3 : Again, from what I've seen, STRAIGHT UP GAME FOOTAGE, they don't move a lot. In a 10 minute game, 6-7 of those minutes are spent on their knees, snapshooting. Again, I look at the video from 'Cup, where they spend a lot of time shooting, and not running, diving, and so on.

4 : X-Ball. We'll see if this stands the test of time, I've already heard rumors that it's for sale, and a multi-million dollar deal has already been offered for it by an outside the industry person, I've heard. Hey, if it goes all power to 'em. But, to come back to the point, for the most part paintball players aren't athletes, still. I've never seen a conditioning regiment for players. Ever.

Hell, how many smokers are in paintball?

Baca : I do see your point, I really do. I'm not just arguing to argue, I'm trying to explain myself, and my expirences. From all I've seen, the focus of paintball has been on the firepower, not the movement. And all the video, and the players, I've seen do not convince me otherwise. Even if X-Ball encourages movement (and I can't see how, the real 'focus' of the game is that you can win by scoring a point and sitting on it if you play a hard "D" game...) tha's X-Ball, players adapting to the format, as they have all along to adapt to the shiny new technology. If X-Ball went limited paint, they'd adapt to that too. WE're like that.

-Tyger

 

[Tyger]

Originally posted by JoseDominguez
Couldn't we combine the two and have a larger area pump/woodland bit going at the same time as the main tourney?

Why not have the pumps play in the Sup'Air tourney too? If it's offered with enough notice, I guarantee you that teams will come out for it. I know there's a lot of Sterlings and Phantoms sitting in the UK looking to play hardball.

-Tyger

 

[Baca Loco]

Lotta good points here :

Originally posted by Tyger
Baca : I do see your point, I really do. I'm not just arguing to argue, I'm trying to explain myself, and my expirences. From all I've seen, the focus of paintball has been on the firepower, not the movement. And all the video, and the players, I've seen do not convince me otherwise. Even if X-Ball encourages movement (and I can't see how, the real 'focus' of the game is that you can win by scoring a point and sitting on it if you play a hard "D" game...) tha's X-Ball, players adapting to the format, as they have all along to adapt to the shiny new technology. If X-Ball went limited paint, they'd adapt to that too. WE're like that.

-Tyger

I hear ya and as I said, given the general state of the game in recent years probably the majority of players have tended toward the technical and defensive cause it was easier and safer. But at the top of the game it's always had proponents who were hell bent to sweep you off the field regardless. (Even the AA's have changed their tune.) And what the best teams have demonstrated over and over again is that, regardless of the paint in the air, tactical movement wins games. This is filtering down and being encouraged by changes in field design (which have only become closer to the standard in the last 6 months to a year) and the fact more and more competition teams are playing against each other for practice.
X-Ball does encourage radically new conceptions of how to play the game but also allows less creative teams to treat it like "regular" paintball. For example, Vegas fields for X offered a more "balanced" design that didn't penalize teams for playing defensively when some of the other designs used for X have practically demanded aggresive play just to stay alive.
And yes, the game and players would adapt but I'm suggesting the best players already are adapting and doing so in the massive paint flinging environment.

 

[all canadian]

semi all the way....i find that pumps take too much work just to shoot on ball, not to mention a whole bunch. i tried to use one in speedball, and i got nuked.....not fun!!