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The Problem with Talking Teamwork

Buff

TEAM APOCALYPSE
Jul 21, 2007
153
2
28
land of bricks
thanks for clearing things up robbo (again) we had are arses handed to us yesterday at the masters and all that was said by our captain after every game... we need to talk more, well sorry but telling me there back centre is hot isn't helping me to shoot him out or make sure i'm tucked away nicely. i left the field yesterday very disgruntled and after reading this i understand why.
i knew something was up, you know when you get that feeling.... too much emphasis on something that doesn't help that much. talk... its too quiet, is there anywhere in the paintball bible that says "when you go on the field you must scream like a bhanshee while you try and shoot people??

the idea of technique in this game is probably quite new (correct me if i'm wrong) but because the game is so young we are all on a steep learning curve, but rather than listening to someone who thinks they know what they are on about, we should be watching pro teams and picking people like robbo's brains about technique.
any other sport you learn those things first, you don't play a football match without being taught how to kick a ball properly (england aside) you don't play rugby without learning how to tackle and pass properly.

we must learn how to do the simple things first. don't overcomplicate things.

that's my rant over with, there was just one problem with this article though Robbo



a koala is a marsupial, not a bear!! ;)
 

Akril

Maverick
Aug 2, 2010
41
3
18
Ok I'm going to be controversial but before I do let me start with saying I am new to paintball and so defer to your knowledge of the game. *However, I do make a living from building logical arguments. *Since your case is made out, not on impirical evidence but on logical conclusions I feel I can contribute.

And so my counter argument is that the logic applied by the OP is disjointed and the only true conclusion one can draw is "it depends on the team". *Now before its suggested that this is a flippant response I propose to argue it mathematically and logically which based on your two lecture posts Robbo I assume you'll appreciate, (if perhaps for little more than a bit of intellectual sparing).

First, your use of Einsteins ap priori experiment misses the fundamental mechanism; namely you need either to have some factual certainties or at least some widely accepted assumptions; those serving as the caveats to your conclusion.

To this extent one would be wise to observe the Socratic deductive method of reasoning, such as the well known syllogism "All men are mortal, Socrates is a man, therefore Socrates is mortal".

Leaving aside the point that to prove Teamwork and Communication ("T&C") are over rated by some, you'd first need to assess the rating they have given it, the logic of your argument follows like this "It is possible to win without T&C, some teams value T&C alot, therefore T&C are overrated". *The problem with that logical analysis is (a) it can be deployed for every aspect of the game including tightness. *"It is possible to win the game without being tight, some teams value tightness, therefore tightness is overrated" and (b) it reaches a logical certainty from an uncertain baseline. I'll show what I mean for both points.

In relation to (a): Before my inexperience is leapt upon and exposed with the line "ah thats because you do not understand the significance of being tight", that would be to misunderstand my argument. *I am talking in terms of possibilities and so too is the OP. *If a different argument were deployed "ah yes but if you knew the game you would know straight away, tightness is more critical" that in fact serves to highlight the correctness of my argument. *Relativity! *Once you move away from possibilities and more into quantitative assessment the OP becomes meaningless (at least in so far as its logical basis is concerned). *The OP is about using logic in ones mind not evidence, impirical or anecdotal.

In relation to (b): suppose we use the same logic as the OP in a different way. *Take this example "It is possible for a man to live his life without eating meat, Socrates was a man, therefore Socrates did live his life without eating meat". *Immediatel the falisy becomes obvious. *The proper conclusion is "it is possible Socrates lived his life without eating meat". *Either by inadvertance or intellectual slight of hand the OP has created the impression of a logical argument that in fact does not follow the premise. *It uses an open-ended baseline of possibilities which it crystalises into a certainty which is undeserved.

The only real logical conclusion to the question "is teamwork overrated/ over prioritised" is "it depends on the team".

Let me demonstrate with mathematics. *Lets devise a relatively uncontroversial formula for winning (the total accuracy is not important for the purposes of demonstratong the conclusion - its illustrative). *So lets say:

Winning = Individual Skill + Equipment + Preparation + T&C + Other Gaming factors + Luck (or happenstance whatever you want to call it) + the Unknown Variables.

Now lets use that to consider what teams should prioritise (as that was the thrust of the OP).

First lets make some deductions. *Luck and Unknowns are by definition beyond a player/ team's control save for limited mitigation by Prep, so they cannot be prioritised.

Also Equipment in terms of priority does not correlate to training (how much you can afford and what you doing during training are not intersecting factors).

So that leaves Individual Skill (including tightness), Prep + T&C and Other Gaming factors.

Secondly, lets take three fairly obvious statements, (a) "to complete the formula we would need numerical data, (b) "as winning is a competitive formula the required value to win is relative to the opponent you are facing" (c) each numerical value has a curved progression (here we use a bit of reality, the more proficient you are the more effort it takes for the same degree of improvement - take runners for example, it is much easier for a new runner to shave a second of their 100m sprint than an olympic runner).

So how do we resolve that formula, without impirical studies. By applying some logic (and common sense) to the three *statments above. *The priority will depend on the individual teams make up. *Take football for example (not impirically - im not cheating, but illustratively). *Sometimes you get the best individually skilled players but they do not gel and vice versa. *Some teams however have gifted individuals who can operate in isolation. *

Lets draw our first obvious conclusion. *T&C will improve your chances - to a lesser or greater degree.

Some teams however will over prioritise T&C, either because they fail to realise other weaknesses are greater or because their T&C is very good and the further investment of effort is not warranted by the improvement gained. *However that analysis is true of any feature of the game. *This immediately dispels the OP. *Because it can apply to any control factor the criticism can be made of any feature. *You can onky draw two conclusions from that sub-conclusion. *The first is "all features are over rated/ prioritised" - that would make no sense. *The other conclusion (and therefore the conclusion) is some teams may be overrating/ over prioritising "a" feature of the game which may or may not be T&C.

So with little difficulty we can conclude the answer to the formula is, "it depends on the team." *

Now I suspect in truth the OP is really using anecdotal evidence. *I'd say you appear to be very well respected and so your anecodotal evidence holds some credibilty. *But thats not the same thing as passing it off as a logical analysis ;)
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
13,114
2,157
448
London
www.p8ntballer.com
I have skim-read your post and I will answer more fully when I have time ... a lot of time ....
The post strikes me at first to be a tad disrespectful, I maybe misreading you but it comes across as not so much an extended enquiry into the relevance of my initial post but more an opportunity for you to cross swords with someone who you either do not like or feel that I am talking cr@p .....

It will prove academic as to which bracket you come from because I will try to answer your post either way.
I know how my mind works in terms of trying to explain things and am 100% confident in my use of rationale to unlock somewhat obscured truths.

I NEVER try to BS to cover up any shortcomings with my reasoning and so if you are correct in that I have misled anybody with my post, then I will duly apologise to them and concede to the higher plane where your intellect lies.

We shall see what happens when I have enough time to rebut your post .... I'm interested to see if I'm in any way wrong because I tell ya one thing ... at the end of my rebuttal, I will know in myself exactly the reasons why you posted this and I sincerely hope those reasons are benign, I really do ... but at the moment, my cynical side is twitching in the belief you are cloaked .... and not the person you are endeavouring us to believe.
Let's see where this takes us shall we .....
 

Akril

Maverick
Aug 2, 2010
41
3
18
Before you reply can I say my motives are entirely benign which I hoped had come across from the suggestion of enticing you with a bit of "intellectual sparing". In fact that was also intended as a compliment (i.e you obviously have a skill with putting together lectures) but much as with the academc world those lecturers are served by the debate they generate, which should always be done with respect.

If my most is in anyway taken as maligned then i can only apologise. It was intended as playful jousting.
 

Bon

Timmy Nerd
Feb 22, 2006
2,754
76
73
35
Birmingham
Before you reply can I say my motives are entirely benign which I hoped had come across from the suggestion of enticing you with a bit of "intellectual sparing". In fact that was also intended as a compliment (i.e you obviously have a skill with putting together lectures) but much as with the academc world those lecturers are served by the debate they generate, which should always be done with respect.

If my most is in anyway taken as maligned then i can only apologise. It was intended as playful jousting.
Due to Petes somewhat, prominant possition and, 'colorful' personallity within the paintball industry it isn't uncommon for someone to post malicious posts at / for him under the guise of an intellectual "debate".

I for one look forward to seeing this thread develop!
 

Akril

Maverick
Aug 2, 2010
41
3
18
I see. Well can I suggeat Robbo if you are concerned of that please check my other posts in the newbie section (or on othe sites such as talk paintball). You'll hopefully see I am most eminantly a newbie and other then your lecture post (the intellctualism of which caught my eye) i haven't the faintest idea who you are.

If you would like some friendly debate please lets go for it. However if there is any concern otherwise i'll gladly bow out and remove the post.
 

Dusty

Don't run, you'll only die tired....
May 19, 2004
7,606
2,407
348
45
Northern Ireland
Before you reply can I say my motives are entirely benign which I hoped had come across from the suggestion of enticing you with a bit of "intellectual sparing". In fact that was also intended as a compliment (i.e you obviously have a skill with putting together lectures) but much as with the academc world those lecturers are served by the debate they generate, which should always be done with respect.

If my most is in anyway taken as maligned then i can only apologise. It was intended as playful jousting.
For a start, sparring needs to be spelt correctly before becoming intellectual.

I thank you.
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
13,114
2,157
448
London
www.p8ntballer.com
Ak, I am genuinely pleased you're not a 'cloaked' individual seeking to deceive and malign; this maybe all smacks of paranoia which I'm sure has at least some truth threaded in it but I suppose I'm always defaulting to the defensive hence my somewhat negative initial response to you ... I apologise for that seeing as you seem to be a genuine person merely seeking to enter into an intellectual debate with a view to thrashing out the truth of the matter .... OK, you got me, I’m hooked and will therefore take you on, and swords will cross ..... good luck mate!
I'll get back to you ......

................. And as for not knowing who I am?
Hmmmm ....... interesting, very interesting .. :)
 

Akril

Maverick
Aug 2, 2010
41
3
18
@ Dusty. touche. I could blame it on having had only 3 hours sleep last night or on the intollerable iPhone keyboard. However, whilst both true i just cant spell for love nor money.

@ Robbo. I look forward to it eagerly. :)