The Truth................
- Thread starter Robbo
- Start date
All guns fire from a closed bolt. Every single gun I know of has the bolt forward and the ball chambered before the gas blast is released.
As to whether they start off open or closed... well to be honest it's pretty irrelevant.
If you think the 'small gentle kick' of the bolt pushing the ball into the breech is going to have any lasting affect after the huge nasty acceleration of 50,000 feet per second per second at about 1500g's as it accelerates down the barrel in approx 6ms then you aren't just 'pissing in ocean' but 'pissing in the wind also'
As for the closed bolt gun being more consistant and more efficient, well that itsn't just a factor of ANY closed bolt gun, and it is not due to the single fact that it is closed bolt. Some gun designs can be more consistant than others and certain closed bolt gun designs such as the autococker do make it easier to fine tune for efficiency and consistancy. But this is due to the design of the GUN not the fact it is CLOSED BOLT. You can do this with open bolt design guns also.
There are actually significant disadvantages to closed bolt guns when taking feeding into account, which is why most fast firing top end guns are open bolt.
It is possible to design an open bolt gun that is both consistant and efficient.
manike
As to whether they start off open or closed... well to be honest it's pretty irrelevant.
If you think the 'small gentle kick' of the bolt pushing the ball into the breech is going to have any lasting affect after the huge nasty acceleration of 50,000 feet per second per second at about 1500g's as it accelerates down the barrel in approx 6ms then you aren't just 'pissing in ocean' but 'pissing in the wind also'
As for the closed bolt gun being more consistant and more efficient, well that itsn't just a factor of ANY closed bolt gun, and it is not due to the single fact that it is closed bolt. Some gun designs can be more consistant than others and certain closed bolt gun designs such as the autococker do make it easier to fine tune for efficiency and consistancy. But this is due to the design of the GUN not the fact it is CLOSED BOLT. You can do this with open bolt design guns also.
There are actually significant disadvantages to closed bolt guns when taking feeding into account, which is why most fast firing top end guns are open bolt.
It is possible to design an open bolt gun that is both consistant and efficient.
manike
Hmmmmmm
Aha, we have come from accuracy and range issues to that of consistency, hopefully I (with the help of a few others) have swept away all the bull**** that people like Harry (Chill) and many others indulge themselves in with regard to range and accuracy.
Now consistency is an issue and I suppose is a significant emergent property of each particular gun and set up but the main determinant in consistency and when I say 'main', I mean 'MAIN' is the paint.
Barrels are made with sometimes a tenth of a thou differential in bore size, paint however can be plus or minus twenty five thou which puts barrel effect way down the list and paint at the head when it comes to consistency.
So, when we discuss the merits and demerits of open and closed bolt systems, we are basically talking about effects that are so small when compared to paint differentials, that it makes the discussion, in practical terms, pointless.
Now 'yes' there is an effect or rather a difference between open and closed bolt operation but it is of the same magnitude as I said before, pissing in the ocean.
So let's all try to get a handle on this and concentrate on what is really important about the game of paintball and that is how we play the game, the techniques we adopt, the training regimes we develop, the set-ply theories we think may be appropriate and so much more that isn't hardware orientated.
Coz I tell ya one thing, if you go out on the field against me, I ain't gonna be worrying if you got an open or closed bolt system, I am just gonna shoot your frikkin head off coz I play tighter and shoot straighter and believe me, that's what paintball is all about not how many frikkin stripes your gun has got on it.
Robbo
Aha, we have come from accuracy and range issues to that of consistency, hopefully I (with the help of a few others) have swept away all the bull**** that people like Harry (Chill) and many others indulge themselves in with regard to range and accuracy.
Now consistency is an issue and I suppose is a significant emergent property of each particular gun and set up but the main determinant in consistency and when I say 'main', I mean 'MAIN' is the paint.
Barrels are made with sometimes a tenth of a thou differential in bore size, paint however can be plus or minus twenty five thou which puts barrel effect way down the list and paint at the head when it comes to consistency.
So, when we discuss the merits and demerits of open and closed bolt systems, we are basically talking about effects that are so small when compared to paint differentials, that it makes the discussion, in practical terms, pointless.
Now 'yes' there is an effect or rather a difference between open and closed bolt operation but it is of the same magnitude as I said before, pissing in the ocean.
So let's all try to get a handle on this and concentrate on what is really important about the game of paintball and that is how we play the game, the techniques we adopt, the training regimes we develop, the set-ply theories we think may be appropriate and so much more that isn't hardware orientated.
Coz I tell ya one thing, if you go out on the field against me, I ain't gonna be worrying if you got an open or closed bolt system, I am just gonna shoot your frikkin head off coz I play tighter and shoot straighter and believe me, that's what paintball is all about not how many frikkin stripes your gun has got on it.
Robbo
I'll argue that the main factor in consistancy is the gun. But most and probably ALL guns can be consistant if looked after properly. Some guns can be more consistant than others in general playing circumstances due to good design. (i.e. under rapid fire or with smeg and dirt in them).
I've been doing a lot of tests on consistancy lately. I can take the same paint and shoot it through one gun with +/- 2fps and then shoot it through another gun and get +/- 5fps, and another at +/- 15fps.
I've also done it with exactly the same projectiles (solid balls) so it's not down to paint variation before you grab onto that one Robbo
The Second most important factor is the paint. I have a gun that will shoot +/- 1fps with solid balls and sometimes the same with good paint, feed it bad paint and I get wild variations, sometimes as bad as +/-15fps.
Good paint is worth finding and spending the money on.
manike
I've been doing a lot of tests on consistancy lately. I can take the same paint and shoot it through one gun with +/- 2fps and then shoot it through another gun and get +/- 5fps, and another at +/- 15fps.
I've also done it with exactly the same projectiles (solid balls) so it's not down to paint variation before you grab onto that one Robbo
The Second most important factor is the paint.
I have a gun that will shoot +/- 1fps with solid balls and sometimes the same with good paint, feed it bad paint and I get wild variations, sometimes as bad as +/-15fps.Good paint is worth finding and spending the money on.
manike
Hmmmmmm
But your right in the actual game its pretty imaterial!
not really moved on as, accuracy comes from consistency.
But your right in the actual game its pretty imaterial!
I can and have got the same kind consistancy with my angel (+/- 1fps) but with bad paint, forget about it!Originally posted by manike
The Second most important factor is the paint.
Good paint is worth finding and spending the money on.
manike
I agree on the paint thing wholeheartedly. I shoot an Angel (resonably consistent), got one of them expansion wotchamacallits (somewhat more consistent), and as an air source I use an Angel A.I.R (very consistent). Yet a while ago my chronying was somewhere in the 279 to 301 range. Wasn't the chrony, cause it was a new radar one. Guess what, I fed my marker some fresh Hellfire, and, hey presto, all of a sudden it was +/- 2ish..........
The paint that I had in it previously was almost square.....
The paint that I had in it previously was almost square.....
Re: Hmmmmmm
If you have a consistent gun you can run it closer to the velocity limit as there is less chance of a hot shot and penalty points. If you are running closer to the limit your average fps is higher and greater fps means great range.
It is ALL about consistency in my book. It's just how you go about getting that consistency...
manike
Yep and I'll add that in the game of paintball range also comes from consistency.
If you have a consistent gun you can run it closer to the velocity limit as there is less chance of a hot shot and penalty points. If you are running closer to the limit your average fps is higher and greater fps means great range.
It is ALL about consistency in my book. It's just how you go about getting that consistency...
manike
Simon (Manike),Originally posted by manike
I'll argue that the main factor in consistancy is the gun. But most and probably ALL guns can be consistant if looked after properly. Some guns can be more consistant than others in general playing circumstances due to good design. (i.e. under rapid fire or with smeg and dirt in them).
I've been doing a lot of tests on consistancy lately. I can take the same paint and shoot it through one gun with +/- 2fps and then shoot it through another gun and get +/- 5fps, and another at +/- 15fps.
I've also done it with exactly the same projectiles (solid balls) so it's not down to paint variation before you grab onto that one Robbo
The Second most important factor is the paint.
Good paint is worth finding and spending the money on.
manike
You of all people should have realised that I was taking it for granted that the gun was properly maintained when I made my assertion about paint being the main determinant in consistency.
Otherwise you have to legislate for every level of maintenance there is on the paintball circuit when considering issues such as this and as you know there are some real dicks out there who clean their gun about once a year, like me
A properly maintained gun when fired, will without doubt, have its consistency of shot, more affected by the consistency in paint !!
I hope you acknowledge that !
I do concede however that there will be diferences betwen guns of maybe the order you say (I will take your word for it as I have done no similar experiments) due to the design differentials but I still maintain the main determinant is paint variation.
Robbo