Trigger Bounce in the UK

[cgrieves]

It's a real difficult one to call.

What I think should NOT happen is a blanket NPPL style ban on markers "capable" of trigger bounce, or at least markers they they decide are "capable". For instance there is a blanket ban on RT/X Valved Automag's with mechanical triggers. The reactive trigger feature kicks back on your finger, and with simple tuning can be set up so that the return force is so strong you just keep your finger steady and the trigger bounces off it- basically "runaway". That's obviously not right, and clearly dangerous. However a correctly tuned 'Mag with a reactive trigger will not do this. However the NPPL have banned RTs. outright That's a shame for the 'Mag owners who have made the decision to stick with mechanical triggerse for reasons of simplicity and reliability: as long as the marker isn't tuned to "runaway", it still won't fire as fast as an electro "walking" the trigger, so why is the RT unsafe?

And technically, any marker with an electro trigger can be set up to bounce, so why only ban RTs?

The solution must be for chrono judges to fire the markers and judge the bounce at chrony time. If it's deemed excessive, then you're not allowed to use it. My idea would be to first pull the trigger firmly all the way back, and check only one shot is fired. Then a slow gentle pull of the trigger to check if there's excessive reactivity, then a gentle slow pull to check if there's a sweetspot where the marker will bounce excessively...... note the word "excessively"..... most triggers have a sweetspot so the organisers would have to decide what is excessive and make sure that the rulings are consistent.

 

[Crusher]

could mean cheaper balls

IF everyonr fires more paint, economics may bring down the price of balls!!!???

My opinion
I pull my trigger till it stops...in that time 1 ball gets fired...Legal
I bang the back..light return spring...it fires once...GREY AREA
I bang the back with heavy spring it hurts my hand.....Legal
I play and find the sweet spot on the trigger away it goes rattling like a skeleton in a biscuit tin......to me...legal.

Most bounce problems seem to come from mechanical switches and the deflection of the diaphram or switch lever.

Bouncing of the recoil, to me is the player taking his equipment to the optimum, the way footy boots now have little flaps for curling! AS LONG AS WHEN THE TRIGGER IS PULLED ONCE ALONG ITS FULL TRAVEL AND FIRES ONCE IT SEEMS LEGAL TO ME.

Blips example was illegal and dangerous!

It just seems that everyone will chop and shoot coleslaw as we stroll down the field 1 tapping you out

Seey'awl

 

[Roland]

The way it was explained to me by Russell Smith is that each trigger movement should fire one ball.

With trigger bounce the finger stays still but the trigger moves therefore one trigger movement equals one ball, legal.

If you want to stop trigger bounce it should be based on the finger moving, one trigger pull equals one ball.

How you enforce the rule is another matter but a marshall hitting the back of the grip frame (hard) with the palm of his hand is not on. I saw this done to a Timmy at KOTH. These electronics are delicate and expensive I think this issue needs sorting quickly.

 

[Al Woods]

Different guns need different tests

Cockers for example have a lot more moving parts, when fired the whole gun moves slightly thus, maybe, aiding the firee to rock the bitch easier.

Should guns with less moving parts be tested differently??

 

[Munky]

From another thread

Originally posted by Liz
There was a thread somewhere about this recently, and it ended up with a set of tests for this that was suggested for Millenniums. Don't know if the Millennium Board took it up, but we did for the M25. These tests specifically avoid finding the "sweet spot" on the trigger that can sometimes occur e.g. the tester shouldn't try to hold the trigger in one position part way through depressing it.
Here's the final version that was posted here -

"First, the judge will fully depress and hold the trigger. While keeping the trigger fully depressed, the judge will attempt to move the trigger side to side. The judge will then release the trigger. No more than one paintball may have been fired.

Second, the judge will as quickly as possible fully depress and then release the trigger. No more than one paintball may have been fired.

Third, the judge will apply sideway pressure to the trigger and then attempt to fully depress the trigger. No more than one paintball may have been fired.

Fourth, the judge will slowly, over a period not to exceed two seconds, fully depress the trigger in one continuous motion and then, over a period not to exceed two seconds, slowly release the trigger in one continuous motion. No more than one paintball may have been fired.

"If any of the four tests are failed, a player may request that the complete set of four tests is repeated an additional two times. The marker will be deemed legal if it passes every subsequent test and be otherwise deemed illegal.

"Any marker which can be made to fire without applying a force external to the marker directly to the trigger is illegal.

"These tests will be performed with the marker held in a manner and position consistent with playing on the field

If all tourneys adopted these tests wouldn't it solve many of the problems?

 

[go-one]

One pull is one movment of the FINGER. If the gun fires, even once by ANY other method but the finger it is moving down a slippery slope to a section 7 firearm !!!
Slaping the back off the gun though does seem a bit excesive but I supose if a gun were droped, and fired, injuring someone the HSE would be all over the site like a rash and its the site / tournie organisers that are paying the insurence bill. So if they want to bring in a test to protect ther livlyhood who are we to complain because some muppet ain't got game and trys to 'push the limit' of legality to make up for it !!!!!!!!

Moral of the story, learn to pull a NORMAL LEGAL triger faster !!!!!!

It Beaker can manage it ...........................(Hi dude, great playing with you again sun !)

 

[MrPink]

Originally posted by go-one


Moral of the story, learn to pull a NORMAL LEGAL trigger faster !!!!!!

That's what I'm talking about

 

[Nudge-TeamScream]

Well Said!

Moral of the story, learn to pull a NORMAL LEGAL triger faster !!!!!!

Well said, it seems to me that anyone with a Normal (Non-Elctrical) trigger can do this easily... My mate has an angel... he loves the trigger as it is. it isnt like other people triggers... it doesnt have lack of trigger pull, so when you whisper next to it it doesnt fire, Unlike most guns ive seen! It is getting rediculos how triggers are set these days to fire ****e laods of paint.... as i said earlier its becoming a big safety thing hence the rule.

Anyone and almost everyones preferes a shorter trigger, even i do.... but theirs a fine line between Short and Stuipdly short (to the extent you sneeze from three feet away and it fires)

I still agree with the trigger bounce rule...

Nudge

 

[Bully]

Adding to the debate!

Firstly these are my comments and not a UKPSF comment or a rule change for the Series events, I just wanted to add to the debate.

I am not sure banging a marker anywhere is a fair and accurate test as it all depends who bangs the gun and what with!!

There is a skill involved in pulling a trigger fast and maintaining the speed. There are a lot of players out there that can achieve and maintain a high rate of fire without the need for "bounce".

The skill factor is eliminatted if the trigger is doing the work by "bouncing" off a finger. So why not remove the "grey area" by adopting a standard that the trigger has to move 2-3mm each cycle. That would eliminate any bounce and then the rate of fire would be down to the skill of the player and not the skill of a screwdriver. Only an idea!!!!

Secondly there was a suggestion (from America and I can't remember who sent me the e mail) some time ago that to ensure the trigger was set with a resistance - if you held the marker upright and hung a small weight (a few grams) on the trigger it should not move (fire) What is the significance of this ??? Well it shows that the player must excert a force on the trigger to make it move and therefore it will alwys return to the "forward" position.

This would prevent triggers being made exceptionally light and the chance of accidental firing. You have all seen the player who puts his marker on the table and it fires!!! some of this can be attributted to a very fine trigger setting and no resistance on the trigger.

Both these points would eliminate "grey areas" and both would have a TEST which is slightly more scientific than banging it with a hand.

I hope this has added to the discussion.

Steve

 

[raehl]

Safety.

banging a marker is not an accurate test of trigger bounce.

It *IS* an accurate test of a marker with an unsafe trigger. A marker should *NEVER* fire unless the trigger is pulled. If smacking the back of it will get it to fire, then dropping it will get it to fire, and that's bad for all sorts of reasons. If your marker can be fired WITHOUT pulling the trigger, it should be prohibitted. Period.

The right action was taken, even if for the wrong reason. Nobody should have markers that fire because they are dropped. That's an eye injury waiting to happen.

And please, of all the abuse paintball markers go through, a ref smacking the back of it isn't going to cause any damage.

- Chris