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FASTER than the speed of light.

Rebel Tackleberry

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2010
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Robbo, as far as this stuff goes I'm just an informed amateur, like you. My background is electrical; I work in the Distribution industry as a high voltage electrical engineer.

From an early age I was fascinated with maths, science and space though. From the age I could send a letter I was conversing with Patrick Moore and writing to Jodrell Bank and the Science Museum for information on all kinds of things.

As I grew older I retain the fascination and read all manner of stuff on cosmology, biology, physics and chemistry.

Regarding the photon, you are correct in that it's intinsic mass is zero. Energy has mass and hence at the high velocity that photon's travel, as electromagnetic radiation, they carry mass as a result of this. That is why it is possible to build such things as solar sails, since light does exert a small force as a result of the mass energy.

The photon is another of those strange things in physics as it only exists at speed. Einstein's insight came from imagining what it would be like to ride a light beam, where he discovered that the speed of light is a constant for EVERY observer, no matter how they are moving. Two observers travelling towards each other at close to c don't see light travelling between them at almost 2c, they see it travelling at c, which means that their measurement of time and space are different to an outside observer; moving clocks run slow and space contracts. This is all handled by Lorenz transformations, which allows one observers measurement of space and time to be converted into another observers frame of reference, making both equally valid.

I've seen your posts on the religious aspect before and they are always well formed and presented. I personally can't subscribe to the notion of an omniscient omnipresent god that exists outside of time and space and is responsible for everything. That brings with it more questions than answers for me.

As far as infinite regression goes, I do see the logic as I see it being a valid question 'if god created everything then who or what created god'. A statement of existing outside of time and space or always having existed just seems a cop out to me.

It comes down to your own internal belief and faith. If someone believes something strongly then it is difficult to impossible to convince them otherwise. Also, who gets to say which is right? We don't have the answer to it either way, only more and more evidence that convinces me of the weirdness of nature and the fact we may never understand how or why we exist at all.

Quantum physics presents many strange things that we simply aren't equipped to understand and visualise intuitively. Wave/Particle duality that interfere with themselves and 'know' whether they've been observed, the creation of particles from nothing, instantaneous transfer of information across distance. It's all fascinating and just goes to show me that the cosmos is not only weirder than we imagine, it is weirder than we CAN EVER imagine.

The only way we come any way to understanding any of it is due to our ability to apply the scientific method to theories. Make predictions and test them. If the prediction holds true then the theory survives. If the prediction fails then the theory needs either amending or discarding. The creation and discovery of high level mathematics provides the only tool for us to probe these strange spaces as we simply can't visualise or understand what happens in the context of our usual everyday experience.

That, to me, is the difference between scientific methods and religious faith. Religious faith does not need any kind of proof, it's all philosophy and arguments of words. Science is confirmed through prediction, experiment and observation. Arguments and statements of words are more down to individual opinion and can bring into play classic paradoxes; i.e 'I am Lying'

As far as creation goes, we simply do not know and it's the search for understanding that makes us human.

The quantum world has shown us that things can come from nothing. Quantum Vacuum Fluctuations show the emergence of particle/antiparticle pairs coming into existence for the smallest units of time. The resultant net energy is zero so conservation doesn't appear to be violated.

However, the Casimir Effect shows that a force can be exerted from this and the question is then whether this can be harnessed to produce any real power. If it can then it would appear to violate conservation. If that does become possible it also opens up the question of whether our universe came from a quantum vacuum fluctuation that was then blown up to macroscopic size.

Then you have the Multiverse option, which can incorporate a mix of other theories.

Another theory is that 'baby universes' are formed when a singularity occurs, such as at the heart of a black hole. Black holes are now known to be common objects in the universe so who knows what that means.

Newer theories put forward that we only perceive 4 of 11 or more dimensions, somewhat akin to being 4 dimensional shadows on walls, or holographic projections, in a higher dimensional reality. The way we now understand the way space and time are interchangeable at high speeds gives some credence to this notion. If high velocity (and hence ) energy can unify what we perceive separately as space and time into a single spacetime entity, and predicted unification of separate forces into different aspects of a single superforce (supersymmetry), then maybe our brains will never be equipped to understand 'reality'.

In the great scheme of things, we are small creatures living in a very narrow spectrum of conditions, at the bottom of a very modest gravity well and at slow speeds and energies. The cosmos is inconceivably huge, with most (interesting) things happening at high velocities and energies, either in the absence of gravity or under high gravity and pressure. I simply don't think we will ever have the raw mental ability to visualise and understand the true underlying reality. Attributing a deity to this doesn't provide a valid answer to me.

With so many theories abounding, maybe one will be true, maybe we'll never know.

Is it any more likely that there is an eternal 'god' over an eternal indifferent inanimate upper dimensional reality, or something that just happened to come into existence from nothing? Who knows?

The fun is in discovery and improvement of what knowledge we do have.
 

WihGlah

Autococker Tech
Jul 19, 2009
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Oxford
I don't necessarily agree that a particle traveling backwards though time cannot interact with "normal" matter (and therefore become detectable). It is notable though that we do not appear to observe such behaviour wiith our current level of technology. (or maybe we do - but don't realise?)

However - are you assuming a constant velocity?

Perhaps these particles travel faster than C for a short period, then slow to more conventional speeds - therefore becoming detectable?


As for faster than light objects traveling backward through time - this might be a logical extension of the time dilation associated with relativistic speeds, but I don't think there has been much work done on it simply because up until now it was thought impossible. It may be a dangerous assumption to make.



Also : http://www.xkcd.com/#
 

Rebel Tackleberry

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2010
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As I implied in my first post, let's say you detect a group of particles and a detection event at the ground 'A' and above the atmosphere 'B'.

Your detections occur firstly at 'A' then at 'B', but the time between them indicates they travelled faster than light, therefore backwards in time.

Would that not just mean that, from our temporal perspective, we need to accept that the particle travelled in space, from B to A, but in time, from A to B?

We simply don't have a frame of reference to visualise intuitively something moving forward in space but backwards in time. We only have intuitive experience of things moving in the same direction of space and time at once, i.e. forwards in both, or backwards in both (a simple thought reversal of everyday experience).
 

Rebel Tackleberry

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2010
122
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Perhaps these particles travel faster than C for a short period, then slow to more conventional speeds - therefore becoming detectable?
This is actually what seems to happen on quantum scales. Due to the 'sum over histories' approach, it means that a particle appears to take EVERY possible route between a set of points. Unbelievable as it sounds, that means some routes could wiggle their way across the entire universe.

When all paths are averaged out we arrive at a straight line route with the expected speed. It would appear that our macroscopic perception of this bizarre behaviour results in our classical interpretation of the particle travelling in a straight line at a set speed.

On quantum scales this actually violates our notion of not being able to travel faster than c, from an initial speed below c.

Special relativity also indicates that the limitation on achieving or exceeding light speed are also only valid in a local inertial frame of reference. It is also theoretically possible for something to be travelling at less than light speed in it's local frame of reference, but appear to be travelling faster than light from a distant frame of reference. This is achieved via warping of spacetime so that space contracts in the direction of travel and expands behind. Thus the object can be at rest within it's local reference and be 'surfing' on a spacetime wave. This again is proven by the fact that some galaxies appear to be receding from us at greater than light speed.

There is also another seeming violation in the apparent propagation of static field effects, such as electric charge and gravity. This is where the field (such as gravity) stays 'up to date' even though the object generating it (such as the Sun) can be moving at a constant velocity relative to an observer. In the case of an observer on the Earth, the sun's light comes from a point where it was just over 8 minutes ago, but the gravitational field always propagates from where the sun is at this exact moment, i.e there is no delay. This changes if the source is accelerating and then results in the emission of waves which 'update' the field and travel at light speed.
 

Robbo

Owner of this website
Jul 5, 2001
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Reb, after reading your reply above and of course many other texts, I'm getting the feeling we have immutable limits to our knowledge and understanding.
Science is a double-edged sword because on one hand it equips us to prize open the doors to many properties and rules of the physical world but it also gives scientists a certain arrogant expectation that they will be able to solve anything given enough time.

The problem is, in my view at least, the success of science is gonna be our undoing at some point because with all this success and new knowledge comes the continued and escalating belief that science has no limits in what it can tell us.
This was obviously given a kick in the balls when Heisenberg hit town with his uncertainty principle but scientist aren't born with too much intellectual humility and maybe because of that quality, it makes them good scientists which of course suggests they're setting themselves up for a massive fall ... which I believe is maybe happening now ... to a point.
All through our scientific history we have made amazing scientific leaps thru the centuries but the last 10 years or so, certainly in the quantum physical world, there hasn't been that much progression.
I realsie the Higgs-boson could well consolidate the standard model once and for all but apart from that, the exponential growth in knowledge and understanding we have enjoyed thru the ages seems to be slowing down somewhat.
Whenever I see a trend forming, it's hard not to conclude the line will continue in the same direction [unless of course something indicates an impending charge coming] and maybe contemporary science is falling foul of linear thinking.
In other words, we can hardly blame the scientists in believing they can finally come up with the GUT and consequently tie down the sometimes conflicting worlds of the quantum and the cosmos when they've had soo much success through the ages.
I suppose the point I am trying to make here is, science could well be drawing close to its Heisenberg's limit in that we will be unable, in fact precluded from, knowing anything past a certain limit.
By the way, I was using Heisenberg there as a descriptive aid, I'm not suggesting he mentioned such a limit.

Much as C is confined to its own intrinsic limit, maybe we are too in intellectual terms.

The only way forward if there is such a limit is philosophy and of course religion which is kinda ironic really because the latter being such a faith based area of our lives and anything but scientific.
 

Rebel Tackleberry

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2010
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I agree that there is definite arrogance from some camps. You only have to look at the way in which some scientific articles are kept from publication due to being 'fringe' science and debunked by those looking to protect their grants. Some of these same debunked papers will probably re-emerge in years to come and a prove to be insightful to newly 'accepted' truth.

Peer Review is great, unless those peers have a vested financial interest in keeping you down.

You only have to look at the Climate Change brigade to see how much this has become a case of money. There are so many people tied up financially in this now that they would never entertain any backing down. Climate Change is a multi billion dollar industry now, with even more when you get into all the 'green' services and products sold off the back of it. All this when global temperatures have been stable since 1998 and 90% of 'greenhouse gas' is water vapour with 8% being Co2, 3% of which is from human activity.

It's been shown that, shown at the right scales, data shows that Co2 in the atmosphere lags sea temperature rise. I.e. rising sea temperatures releases Co2 into the atmosphere, not increased Co2 causing sea temperature rise. There is also the case of solar activity over long periods plus Earth axis precession and tilt changes. Then you have the latest data indicating that the Earth's magnetic field is weakening, dramatically in some areas, which could allow increased solar radiation reaching the planet; all this due to unknown chaotic flows in the molten iron in the planets unseen outer core.

I fail to see how we can ever hope to fully understand these kind of complex interactions with any predictability. No doubt further breakthroughs will come and we'll see the benefits in technology. But...that technology can be our undoing in the long run. What is happening now in the world? You see some of the population and it makes you wonder how they put together IQ's in double figures. The breakdown in society seems to go hand in hand with our ability to apply technology and 'civilisation' to keep the weaker members of our society breeding uncontrollably. Technology may well lead is to 'survival of the weakest' where we'll gradually lose enough of those individuals that are intelligent enough to carry on delving into such mysteries and making discoveries.

You mentioned the Higgs and it's a case in point. Things aren't looking great for the Higgs which has big implications for the Standard Model. There are worries about Supersymmetry not standing up too so it takes us into even more esoteric realms of more complicated theoretical models, each of which can only be described properly by more complicated mathemtics. Our minds just struggle to make a coherent picture of the way things work down at that level of reality and, I guess, why our brains have evolved to be able to deal with such data and filter it into a model of our world.

I quite agree that there will come a time where our biological brains are simply incapable of comprehending what we find. Maybe we will get to a point where we enhance the grey stuff with technology to take us past that limitation and eventually into a new era where those that can afford it have such implants and those that can't don't, bringing a new selection pressure on us as a race.

The thing about discoveries and technology is that it is somewhat unpredictable. No-one predicted 50 years ago that we'd have such power in our hands, in the form of mobile phones and computers, but all expected us to be taking holidays on Mars and spreading out towards the stars.

Who knows, maybe some asteroid will come along and wipe us out before we can act to protect ourselves. I just hope it's not in the next 29 years as I've just paid for Lifetime Platinum Membership! ;-)
 

Rebel Tackleberry

Well-Known Member
Mar 23, 2010
122
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enlighten me on how if it goes faster than the speed of light that it would go back in time? logically dont understand this.
OK, I've been thinking how to explain this in simple terms and came across an explanation earlier today:-

The speed of light is the fastest at which you can convey any information. We perceive events by the information provided by the way in which photons interact with another particle and is affected by it. Generally these interactions involve the absorption and emission of other particles. If we took the premise that a faster-than-light particle could interact with normal slower-than-light particles then...

Imagine a faster-than-light particle that leaves point A and travels to point B, where it is absorbed by a particle at point B. That absorption provides energy that instigates the emission of another faster than light particle that then travels from Point B back to Point A. Since we can only see the results at light speed or slower, this implies that the second particle reaches point A before the first one was emitted, violating our causality, i.e. time travel.