NPPL Super Seven Series

[Beaker]

Hmm..

Well the bits we'll probably both agree on are

Redz Vs Rushers

We (Redz) were at the end nearest the diablo truck, I was doubled up in the lay down just off the left of the start gate.

Our left tape upright coke got shot (Lady with blonde hair) and I kept ran across to fill it.

I ran across and slid in on my gun/knees/feet away from the opposition and hand over goggles (usual way), as I slid in I stood up as soon as possible as the Rushers had the car wash and the so the angle on me so I knew I needed to get in tight real quick.

The bit we probably wont agree on

I stood straight up and you immediately nicked my band - fair enough as I'd been hit on the run across down my leg (good shooting Mark). But you then 1-4-1'd me and took the guy I was doubling with before.

I say I was just getting straight into the bunker and getting safe before checking if I'd been hit. You probably thought I was either wiping it or I shouldn't have got in tight before checking.

Put it this way, the guy who shot me and 3 people I knew spectating knew why i got pulled, but not why 1-4-1'd.

I was actually so confused we didn't even bother arguing it as Andy missed a call when Dave H did a mug from the car wash down the tape so that kinda took precedence at the end.

Now, i don't care and i ain't bashing you - it was a call, it was made, it sucked for me, but hell - it's only paintball.

 

[Mark/Static]

Re: ... here goes the heretic again

Originally posted by Wadidiz
Suggestions for Millennium, NPPL, PSP and X-Ball
1. Continue to recruit and train PRO refs to get them up to the level they need to be.

I'd say they shoulda been scouting the refs they had this year. The ones who seem sharp and notice subtleties in the game shoulda been recruited. However many there may have been.

Originally posted by Wadidiz
2. Require a pre-tournament briefing for all refs to make sure everyone is....

Blah, blah, blah, actually I agree totally with that. But prior to this an assigned reffing crew needs to work together somehow in the off season. Then after the briefing, they need to go out and walk the field, assign areas of responsibility, how the rotation would work, "If Billy needs to run in to dig out a player that didn't quite make his move, Tommy needs to shift to cover both areas."

Originally posted by Wadidiz
3. Carefully monitor the quality of judging at every tournament and encourage excellence and consistency.

Deligate the authority, the ultimate for each reffing crew has the responsibility to make sure the minds of his crew stays on this planet. Then just monitor the ultimate, making the buck stop with him.

Originally posted by Wadidiz
8. Make sure that NPPL, PSP and X-Ball tournaments have a mix of international refs to avoid the appearance and possible reality of bias because these events are now truly international.

I feel this will damage the integrety established by a crew that's been working together all year. Then again, no one knows who or how the Int'l aspects will work out.

Originally posted by Wadidiz
9. Assign to every field a head-judge who is independent of any player/ref team and who has the authority to maintain....

This is obviously contrary to the team concept. Being familiar with a fellow ref goes a long way to establishing team work. Just knowing a dudes name, and being able to recall it when do-do is hitting the fan makes a big difference.

Originally posted by Wadidiz
10. All professional and amateur teams shall be required to commit to judging one tournament in the series.....

This definitely needs to end for the rest to truly work.

Originally posted by Wadidiz
14. Require a minimum of one judge for every two players.....

I still maintain that if well trained, and after cutting the dead weight, these numbers won't be neccessary on the field at all times, but before you freak, I'll allow it for the sake of rotation. 2 refs rotate out for 2 games, so every 6 games or so, each ref gets a 2 game break.

Originally posted by Wadidiz
16. Change chronographing rules to require exit chronographing....

Gotta go thumbs down on that one. They just need to calibrate the hand helds together, and use them consistently during the game.

Originally posted by Wadidiz
17. Get rid of the don't-look rule in NPPL.

Hell yes!

 

[Baca Loco]

OK Steve, you kinda asked for it

Originally posted by Wadidiz
1. Continue to recruit and train PRO refs to get them up to the level they need to be.

My point is, and was, that your point 1. is the critical issue and that isn't really addressed at all.
I'm also saying you can't simply train them as "good" refs are now "trained" cos it's plainly not good enough. I'm also saying there needs to be a well thought out, ground up process of training developed, a HOW TO manual as it were --

But in the meantime, I've no complaints with your measures.

Edit added after reading Mark's post. Gotta say I think Mark and I are more or less on same page but I'm approaching this whole reffing thing not as if the present situation can be added to, or spruced up until it works okay but a complete make-over of the whole reffing biz.

 

[Wadidiz]

Originally posted by Beaker
Hmm..

Well the bits we'll probably both agree on are

Redz Vs Rushers

We (Redz) were at the end nearest the diablo truck, I was doubled up in the lay down just off the left of the start gate.

Our left tape upright coke got shot (Lady with blonde hair) and I kept ran across to fill it.

I ran across and slid in on my gun/knees/feet away from the opposition and hand over goggles (usual way), as I slid in I stood up as soon as possible as the Rushers had the car wash and the so the angle on me so I knew I needed to get in tight real quick.

The bit we probably wont agree on

I stood straight up and you immediately nicked my band - fair enough as I'd been hit on the run across down my leg (good shooting Mark). But you then 1-4-1'd me and took the guy I was doubling with before.

I say I was just getting straight into the bunker and getting safe before checking if I'd been hit. You probably thought I was either wiping it or I shouldn't have got in tight before checking.

Put it this way, the guy who shot me and 3 people I knew spectating knew why i got pulled, but not why 1-4-1'd.

I was actually so confused we didn't even bother arguing it as Andy missed a call when Dave H did a mug from the car wash down the tape so that kinda took precedence at the end.

Now, i don't care and i ain't bashing you - it was a call, it was made, it sucked for me, but hell - it's only paintball.

Yeah, now I think I remember.

First, let me tell you that I very much appreciate the tone you're using. I suspect that most of my countrymen, Americans, would have already been down my throat by now.

I could have been wrong, but let me give you the way I see it. I have seen a lot of players, especially British players, stand in their bunkers after being hit and assume that we judges are watching and that the judge is going to walk over and call them out and pull the armband. The body language I have seen suggests to me that the player just hopes the hit will go away.

In the NPPL, when there is quality reffing, it has always been clear that the player checks himself immediately and gives the out sign if seen to be hit. Therefore I have always told teams at captains' meetings in Sweden, where I have been ultimate, that they better not hesitate if they're hit or there will be penalties.

I remember when I first came back to Sweden after my NPPL experience I saw Magued get hit on his leg while running into a front bunker on the break. He got in and set up, looked out and never looked at the hit on his leg. I went directly from the sidelines and pulled him and another player and he got into my face about it afterwards.

At Joy he told all the captains he would do what I just described, so he learned.

Since you're a gentleman and I am too, I will say that I may not have given you time to get tucked in, so that you could safely have a look to see if you were hit. If that's the case I acted too quickly and the 1-4-1 was a bad call.

It could be, and only a video recording could prove one way or the other, that you got there, got set up and looked out, like you were still in the game, in which case I would say you were playing on.

I act quickly because I have seen too many players use those moments to brush against a bunker and smear paint or put their knees to the ground.

I honestly don't know the truth but I apologize if I was too quick in your case. If I was wrong, then it was the only real screw-up I made in all those games (that I would know about). If I was too quick I sincerely hope it didn't ruin your tournament.

Steve

 

[Wadidiz]

OK Steve, you kinda asked for it

Originally posted by Baca Loco
My point is, and was, that your point 1. is the critical issue and that isn't really addressed at all.
I'm also saying you can't simply train them as "good" refs are now "trained" cos it's plainly not good enough. I'm also saying there needs to be a well thought out, ground up process of training developed, a HOW TO manual as it were --

But in the meantime, I've no complaints with your measures.

Edit added after reading Mark's post. Gotta say I think Mark and I are more or less on same page but I'm approaching this whole reffing thing not as if the present situation can be added to, or spruced up until it works okay but a complete make-over of the whole reffing biz.

And actually Baca-san, I totally agree with you. It should be a whole new approach just like you say. I was sorta training myself for that on the thread I started about "Pop-quiz for refs...". I am a teacher/trainer of adults professionally so I have been thinking quite a bit about just this thing.

All of these ideas are great to discuss on a forum like this (and this forum is light-years better than all the others) but needs like a week or two long workshop with people like yourself, Robbo, Jay, Manike, Mark, Beaker, TJ, maybe Chris R if he's nice and many others (sorry if I missed a few of you) to sort these things out.

Steve

 

[Wadidiz]

Re: Re: ... here goes the heretic again

Originally posted by Mark/Static
I'd say they shoulda been scouting the refs they had this year. The ones who seem sharp and notice subtleties in the game shoulda been recruited. However many there may have been.

Blah, blah, blah, actually I agree totally with that. But prior to this an assigned reffing crew needs to work together somehow in the off season. Then after the briefing, they need to go out and walk the field, assign areas of responsibility, how the rotation would work, "If Billy needs to run in to dig out a player that didn't quite make his move, Tommy needs to shift to cover both areas."

Deligate the authority, the ultimate for each reffing crew has the responsibility to make sure the minds of his crew stays on this planet. Then just monitor the ultimate, making the buck stop with him.

I feel this will damage the integrety established by a crew that's been working together all year. Then again, no one knows who or how the Int'l aspects will work out.

This is obviously contrary to the team concept. Being familiar with a fellow ref goes a long way to establishing team work. Just knowing a dudes name, and being able to recall it when do-do is hitting the fan makes a big difference.

This definitely needs to end for the rest to truly work.

I still maintain that if well trained, and after cutting the dead weight, these numbers won't be neccessary on the field at all times, but before you freak, I'll allow it for the sake of rotation. 2 refs rotate out for 2 games, so every 6 games or so, each ref gets a 2 game break.

Gotta go thumbs down on that one. They just need to calibrate the hand helds together, and use them consistently during the game.


Hell yes!

Mark,

I agree with most of your rebuttals. I'll have to come back with a couple of points or two tomorrow when I have more time.

The point about the judges walking their field and getting prepared and actually planning for the eventualities that might come up is real good.

Later,

Steve

 

[Baca Loco]

Here I go again

Originally posted by Wadidiz
I could have been wrong, but let me give you the way I see it. I have seen a lot of players, especially British players, stand in their bunkers after being hit and assume that we judges are watching and that the judge is going to walk over and call them out and pull the armband. The body language I have seen suggests to me that the player just hopes the hit will go away.

I remember when I first came back to Sweden after my NPPL experience I saw Magued get hit on his leg while running into a front bunker on the break. He got in and set up, looked out and never looked at the hit on his leg. I went directly from the sidelines and pulled him and another player and he got into my face about it afterwards.

I act quickly because I have seen too many players use those moments to brush against a bunker and smear paint or put their knees to the ground.

If I recall correctly there is nothing in the NPPL rulebook about either body language or making calls predicated on what you think a player might do. It's the refs' job to check anyone he thinks may be marked--not watch said player and wait to see what he does or doesn't do.
In instances you mentioned I wouldn't have 1-4-1'ed any of them unless they made a specific effort to continue game play. Now if Magued had shot his gun or called out positions or something of that nature before I could get to him and pull him out then he'd have earned his 1-4-1 not because he intentionally played on or acted with the intent to cheat but because he failed to check himself and continued game play for whatever reason (could be he never felt the hit). Under those circumstances you don't get into the position of making judgements only enforcing rules.
In Beaker's case any serious ref needs to get in and immediately check a player making a dangerous run under any circumstances and the player is accorded the opportunity to get safely into the bunker.
Just my take.

 

[Mark/Static]

Originally posted by Wadidiz
I suspect that most of my countrymen, Americans, would have already been down my throat by now.

WHAT THE HELL IS THAT SUPPOSED TO MEAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Wadidiz]

Here I go again

Originally posted by Baca Loco
If I recall correctly there is nothing in the NPPL rulebook about either body language or making calls predicated on what you think a player might do. It's the refs' job to check anyone he thinks may be marked--not watch said player and wait to see what he does or doesn't do.
In instances you mentioned I wouldn't have 1-4-1'ed any of them unless they made a specific effort to continue game play. Now if Magued had shot his gun or called out positions or something of that nature before I could get to him and pull him out then he'd have earned his 1-4-1 not because he intentionally played on or acted with the intent to cheat but because he failed to check himself and continued game play for whatever reason (could be he never felt the hit). Under those circumstances you don't get into the position of making judgements only enforcing rules.
In Beaker's case any serious ref needs to get in and immediately check a player making a dangerous run under any circumstances and the player is accorded the opportunity to get safely into the bunker.
Just my take.

I shouldn't have had another look before I went to bed. Oh well.

Here's the deal, if you're hit your obligation in the rules is to immediately check yourself, call for a paintcheck or call yourself out. To me that is clear. Immediately isn't time enough to get yourself set up in your position and then start looking at your opponents. If you do that, you are still in the game, that's playing on. The question of interpretation here is what does immediately mean. I think I very well may have made the right call but I will also say that I could have been too quick in Beaker's case. We don't have a video recording. If he looked out after getting tucked in he was playing on, period. If I pulled him and then the 1-4-1 without even giving him a chance to get in tight to have a look, then I was simply unfair and acted too quickly.

In Magued's case, years ago, I was right and he would do the same call if he saw it today. And no, I am not going to take time to see if a hit player is going to do something more active. For one, I don't have time to be distracted. I have other players to watch. Two, it is not fair for the player who shot him to have to wait and see if the player he shot is leaving the field or not and thereby hold up the flow of the game. As long as that player is still in his bunker he is still playing, although the rules allow a little "grace" time to check himself or call for a paintcheck. But it better be quick if I'm judging because that's the way I read the rules.

Steve

 

[Beaker]

Originally posted by Wadidiz
Yeah, now I think I remember.

First, let me tell you that I very much appreciate the tone you're using. I suspect that most of my countrymen, Americans, would have already been down my throat by now.

I could have been wrong, but let me give you the way I see it. I have seen a lot of players, especially British players, stand in their bunkers after being hit and assume that we judges are watching and that the judge is going to walk over and call them out and pull the armband. The body language I have seen suggests to me that the player just hopes the hit will go away.

In the NPPL, when there is quality reffing, it has always been clear that the player checks himself immediately and gives the out sign if seen to be hit. Therefore I have always told teams at captains' meetings in Sweden, where I have been ultimate, that they better not hesitate if they're hit or there will be penalties.

I remember when I first came back to Sweden after my NPPL experience I saw Magued get hit on his leg while running into a front bunker on the break. He got in and set up, looked out and never looked at the hit on his leg. I went directly from the sidelines and pulled him and another player and he got into my face about it afterwards.

At Joy he told all the captains he would do what I just described, so he learned.

Since you're a gentleman and I am too, I will say that I may not have given you time to get tucked in, so that you could safely have a look to see if you were hit. If that's the case I acted too quickly and the 1-4-1 was a bad call.

It could be, and only a video recording could prove one way or the other, that you got there, got set up and looked out, like you were still in the game, in which case I would say you were playing on.

I act quickly because I have seen too many players use those moments to brush against a bunker and smear paint or put their knees to the ground.

I honestly don't know the truth but I apologize if I was too quick in your case. If I was wrong, then it was the only real screw-up I made in all those games (that I would know about). If I was too quick I sincerely hope it didn't ruin your tournament.

Steve

No worries

Well, I see it from your POV, especially if it had been mentioned to you specifically.

I have no problem with it - it was a hard call yes, and one that I don't think was entirely right, but it also wasn't entirely wrong. If "I" could see I was hit (which I presume you could) and I thought my intent was to play on, I would have waited a fraction longer before making that call. i.e. I would have waited long enough for me to either show I was going to check myself and leave the field or long enough that if I didn't it was a certain 1-4-1.

I don't want to bag on you as I know you guys busted your @ss out there and things can't be 100% all the time.

It wasn't a bad call, just a tough one. And personally I much prefer playing with tough refs that give out more penalties than maybe they should to sloppy ones who don't give out enough.