Jay !!

[Robbo]

Not so long ago, a few years back I think, we had a discussion going that didn't really go anywhere but I'm still intrigued by it and haven't really gotten a satisfactory answer to it if indeed there is one.
I'm pretty sure you did get involved but I'd be interested to restate the problem if only to remind myself of where it went ..

And so .... I was sitting down one day and pondering the way of the world, as we all do sometimes. And as in that recent Christian Fundamentalists' thread, I maintained the idea that god was omnipotent and omniscient.
I still hold that belief.

The particular thread I am referring to had one guy who finally saw the penny dropping in what I was trying to ask and so I hope others, as well as yourself, can help out here seeing as it's a bit of a tricky philosophical problem rather than religious.

The problem I thought about was this, seeing as god can do anything .. just suppose, I go out one day and for argument's sake, bash some guy over the head with a mallet.

Now, I get all regretful and pray to god and ask him to rewind time and give me the opportunity to not bash the poor sod and god then obliges.
I am now none the wiser as to what happened because from my perspective, it hasn't happened this time and so I won't be able to recall something that I haven't done and therefore cannot remember.

So far so good, at this point, a question arises between my ears; if god can do anything, then I'm now suggesting he does have limitations because even though he will have reversed our time-line and allowed me to take a different route, he is well aware of what he just did and so his limitation is, he is unable to become unaware of some things.

In other words, he cannot undo his own memories of what he's done even though he has changed our time-line and we have not so much forgotten but just haven't repeated and therefore oblivious.
He is of course aware that he changed our time-line and therefore unable to forget the original incident.
It would seem, we can do something he cannot, obviously we achieved it with his help but that's not the point here .... do you see my problem?

All members are free to post here, the only reason I entitled this thread 'Jay' [Buddha 3] was because I wanted to attract his attention, that's all

 

[bizy43]

i would suggest that god knows all time lines and all reactions to any given action so he has no memory as such as he already knew/knows what happens
so the original already exists and always will but you only remember your reality
but in another thread you still mashed someone's head
kind of a sliding doors effect

 

[Buddha 3]

Hmmm...

Interesting.
The thing is, would it be a real rewind of time, or would you just be placed back in time? Seems like a small point, but it makes all the difference.
In the first case, time would have been "reset'', things haven't happened on our world, so you do not remember. This would mean that once you got into the same situation again, there is the chance that you would react the same way as the first time, after all, you don't remember your remorse from the previous time this happened, so you might bash the guy again. So in order for things to be different, it would make sense for god to pick you up and dump you back in time, so you would remember your remorse and possibly avoid the situation altogether...

That little matter aside, that is not your question. Your question is can god forget that which he undid, so never happened? My answer would be yes. I'll try to explain why I feel that way.
Common sense says that no, he can not forget. After all, he did it, has the t-shirt and some other items from the gift shop, so how could he forget? This is all assuming that god's mind works similar to our own. However, in that other thread we came to the conclusion that whatever god may be, his sentience resides on a totally different level than ours. He can pretty much do whatever he wants, so if he wanted to forget (wanting to forget is important in this scenario, otherwise he has no motivation to do so), he could also miracle that trace of memory from his own databank. Don't ask me how it would work, since I haven't got a clue, but to anything that can move through time and create universes, wizarding a memory away would seem nought but a party trick I reckon.

However, assuming the Bible is right (which was not the conclusion in that other thread), god would never forget. In fact, he is tormented by the memories of some of the things he did in the past to punish humanity, vowing never to do these things again...

Interesting philosophical topic this...

 

[Robbo]

Jay, I'm glad you answered cos it now has me thinking about things that are related to this problem that had been ignored because I hadn't thought about the particular point you have made.

With that in mind, I need to clarify your first proposal, that being, God rewinds time and therefore I will be prone to doing the same thing again thus rendering this problem academic .... but, in this case, god not only rewinds time but I'm allowed [temporarily] to remember what I did; In doing so, I would then make a different choice and the 'bashing someone over the head' incident is avoided.
As soon as that has taken place, god then conveniently erases the parts of my memory that related to the initial act of violence and my consequent reset to god to wind the clock back for me.

And so, this example still allows my initial question to be framed .. it just needed tweaking a little because of the point you brought up.

The main point though is, can god erase his own memory of a particular act if he so chooses?
This is where it gets tricky because a paradox looms fast .... if God is all powerful, then he of course could erase his own memory but because he is omniscient, he would know what he did and therefore never truly be able to bury what happened.
I think at this point you may well suggest that if he decides to erase the memory, he can also prevent himself form accessing it again afterwards which in philosophic terms is a paradox because that then means he is not all powerful and there are some things that are beyond even him.
After all, if he successfully erases his memory of it but in this case, he allowed me to go back in time, not bash anyone but still be able to recollect the events then this puts me in a position of I know something god doesn't which has to be impossible for obvious reasons.
Hmm, there's more to this problem than meets the eye methinks .. it probably means we can never understand these things and all we can do is accept our limitations just as we accept Heisenberg's uncertainty principle whereby we can never know a particles momentum and position, we can only ever identify one of them. The act of revealing either its momentum or position immediately bars you from knowing the other.

I think our answer has to lay within the limitations of the human mind; what may seem paradoxical to us is reconciled easily enough in god's conscious mind.
I think we are constantly bound by our limitations and it is this that allows us to get ourselves in cul-de-sac thinking.

 

[Robbo]

i would suggest that god knows all time lines and all reactions to any given action so he has no memory as such as he already knew/knows what happens
so the original already exists and always will but you only remember your reality
but in another thread you still mashed someone's head
kind of a sliding doors effect

Biz, as you may know, a lot of physicists now believe in a multi-verse and multi dimensions.
Since I believe god is all powerful, it then suggests he is aware of all universes, perhaps an infinite number and all dimensions, perhaps once again, an infinite number.

I understand what you are saying but I'm afraid it doesn't deal with the principle problem. That of, god being unable to do everything which in this case applies to me bashing someone over head.
He may well be able to rewind whatever time-line or dimensions I exist in but he necessarily then know the incident did happen even though he created a different time line whereby I didn't bash anyone.
And so, the problem still stands, does this mean he can't do everything as I believe or as we are told in whichever bible you elect to read?

 

[Buddha 3]

Jay, I'm glad you answered cos it now has me thinking about things that are related to this problem that had been ignored because I hadn't thought about the particular point you have made.

With that in mind, I need to clarify your first proposal, that being, God rewinds time and therefore I will be prone to doing the same thing again thus rendering this problem academic .... but, in this case, god not only rewinds time but I'm allowed [temporarily] to remember what I did; In doing so, I would then make a different choice and the 'bashing someone over the head' incident is avoided.
As soon as that has taken place, god then conveniently erases the parts of my memory that related to the initial act of violence and my consequent reset to god to wind the clock back for me.

And so, this example still allows my initial question to be framed .. it just needed tweaking a little because of the point you brought up.

The main point though is, can god erase his own memory of a particular act if he so chooses?
This is where it gets tricky because a paradox looms fast .... if God is all powerful, then he of course could erase his own memory but because he is omniscient, he would know what he did and therefore never truly be able to bury what happened.
I think at this point you may well suggest that if he decides to erase the memory, he can also prevent himself form accessing it again afterwards which in philosophic terms is a paradox because that then means he is not all powerful and there are some things that are beyond even him.
After all, if he successfully erases his memory of it but in this case, he allowed me to go back in time, not bash anyone but still be able to recollect the events then this puts me in a position of I know something god doesn't which has to be impossible for obvious reasons.
Hmm, there's more to this problem than meets the eye methinks .. it probably means we can never understand these things and all we can do is accept our limitations just as we accept Heisenberg's uncertainty principle whereby we can never know a particles momentum and position, we can only ever identify one of them. The act of revealing either its momentum or position immediately bars you from knowing the other.

I think our answer has to lay within the limitations of the human mind; what may seem paradoxical to us is reconciled easily enough in god's conscious mind.
I think we are constantly bound by our limitations and it is this that allows us to get ourselves in cul-de-sac thinking.

I think this post answers the whole question really. We are indeed limited by our own thinking and understanding. Like you said, if he can't do it, he is not omniscient, if he can do it, it would mean he forgot something that happened and he is not omniscient. So either way, he loses...

The only answer really would be that in order for god to be omniscient, he'd have to be not only outside of time and space, as discussed in that other thread, but he'd also exist outside all logic. Which in a weird way is logical again, as he'd be able to create something out of nothing, which is an impossibility as far as we are aware.

 

[Bolter]

Maybe to understand omnipotence, you have to be omnipotent in the first place, resulting in us never ever being able to understand fully the powers it would give you, or indeed how things would work in a situation like you described.

edit: dammit, should have read the whole thread first.

 

[Ainsley]

Why would a God choose to forget? Indeed, he may wish to forget you bashing someone over the bonce, but spin the picture out further......for example a world war. After the war God ponders the events and thinks "yea, probably not the best move" and almost like a game of chess being played solo, reverses the events. By choosing to erase the fact that he undid this war, and all memory of it, seems to be a rather stupid move, and takes away the fact that things actually can be undone to a degree and therefore undermines God's own power by doing so. Surely one of the greatest things given to us by God aside from life is our memory and why would God deny that unto him/herself?

Coming back to chess (which I play far too much on my iPad) there is a "reverse move" button. Now, imagine I would have played out a game and lost. I decide to reverse moves to a point where I'm still in a strong position, and then play on again to a satisfying check mate outcome in my favour. If I had the power to forget that I had just "cheated" in a fashion, wouldn't it undermine the overall knowledge taken to reach that new outcome? I've learnt from my mistakes if I were to remember, but by choosing to forget, I weaken my own abilities. For that reason, whilst God may well have the power to do anything (including wiping their own memory) it seems foolish to do it. Ok,, you may say that God doesn't make mistakes, but whatever, God chooses to change something for a reason God sees fit, even if only to amuse him/herself......this really isn't the issue anyway.

It also hinges on if you see us being oblivious to the memory wipe and God having to live with it as a weakness in God's court. Surely God's omnipotence and omniscience and therefore "knowing all" is what makes God God, and us mere mortals confined to our mental cul-de-sac. God might not be able to wipe his arse once or twice a day either, but I doubt God sees that as a +1 to humanity.

 

[Robbo]

Ainse, when you ask, why god would choose to forget', you're missing the point mate; In normal cases, he would not choose to forget anything seeing as he knows everything past, future and present anyway.

I was posing the question that if I prayed to him to allow me to go back and take a different time-line [decision] then the only way he could become unaware of the incident is by making himself forget .... this action was suggested merely to show that would be unable to forget anything seeing as he would remember the act of trying to forget which was the nub of my question; If god is omniscient and omnipotent, there seemed to be something he couldn't do i.e. forget something.

I know this a difficult problem to consider but if you try and focus on the point in hand, then you'll end with a post pretty similar to Jay's above.

 

[Return of the Silver Fox]

God can clearly forget if he chooses to;

Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.