Sergei Leontiev : The Russian Legion Response

[Robbo]

All you f##in do is talk, talk, talk, continually clouding matters with rhetoric that means **** !!
Sure you mix it up with a few seemingly valid points but your head is so far up your own ass, you don't seem to be able to see the hopelessness and inconsistencies in your posts.
I have never said you would be banned for holding an opinion you idiot, don't try and twist my words for your own ends.
That was a pathetic attempt to try and whip up support for your own end in all this.
You will be banned for not apologising to the RL for accusing them of lying and intentionally cheating.
You have used these boards to libel somebody, if you do not choose to use these boards to take that back and apologise, then you won't use these boards again, simple !

I have been on here and apologised many times, I suggest you grow some balls and do the same.

Robbo

PS Don't email me

 

[manike]

Pete you are asking me to aplogise for something I have not done. I have not directly called Sergei a liar, I have not directly called the RL Intentional cheats. You have tried to put those words into my mouth. In fact I have on many occasions said quite the opposite. You have read it that way.

I simply used your words and asked at what point it became intentional? I have still not heard an answer to that. I then gave my views and opinions on when it became intentional.

What I have done is simply infer what I believe the situation was and what was involved in making up my opinion. And that's my opinion and that is the only thing you want me to aplogise for.

If I have directly called Sergei a liar or directly said they intentionally cheated without putting in proviso's into my arguement about what could or could not have happened at that point then I apologise for it. Where have I done that?

Originally posted by Robbo
Simon, you also erroneously infer they cheated

Yes, I am guilty of infering that they might have cheated. That may be erroneous it may not. If the other points I have made are true. If the other points I have made are not true then I have not.

manike

 

[Robbo]

Below is what you wrote in an earlier post and yet you still maintain you are not calling the Russian Legoin intentional cheats ?
What do you take me for?
You talk about general principles of cheating mixed with an unbelievably pedantic, narrow minded, inflexible view on proceedings and your last few lines give us all the context beginning with, 'They paid the price...'
That says it all !!!!
As for calling Sergei a liar, I posted up what Sergei told me, he said he had no idea, nor did any of his team that the actual guns he was using were at fault and yet you go on to say, you don't believe him.
Now in anyone's book, what is that saying ?
I can't be bothered with you any more Manike, I am done with this, if your next post does not include an apology for inferring, calling, intimating, whatever you damn well like, that the Russians are intentional cheats, then you're gone !


At what point does or does not highly tuning a gun become deliberate cheating? What difference is there in setting up a gun to to shoot Full Auto in an electronic mode as compared to finely tuning a gun such that it can get trigger bounce and fire in what is most definitely FA under the rules? Both are deliberate actions (selecting FA or tuning the gun). Both are illegal. Both are cheating. Both get the same penalty as we saw with the Russian Legion.
We as players have a responsibility to use equipment that fits within the rules. If we don't know the rules we can not use ignorance as an arguement.
If a player is shooting a gun which fires in such a way he damn well knows it. Since he should know the rules, he damn well knows he is cheating. If he gets caught he accepts the penalty.
I don't think it is as bad as software cheating (not sure why but I think that to be sneakier and despicable), but I do think it is deliberate cheating. If he thinks it's just pushing the rules, then again as soon as it gets caught or is deamed to have gone too far then it becomes cheating. They paid the price and showed they still had ability but they didn't need to have guns so 'finely tuned' to do that anyway in my opinion.

 

[manike]

I guess I am about to be banned. Yes I have been talking about general cheating issues as that is what matters to me. Not this specific issue on it's own (although I do care about it).

In the words you have quoted above I have said "at what point does deliberately setting up a gun like that become cheating?"

That means the RL only cheated if they deliberately set their guns up to work like that!

If they did not set their guns up to do that, if they did not know it happened, or if it was accidental then by those very words above I HAVE NOT accused them of cheating.

All I have said in that post is that if the triggers were intentionally set up for bounce then I believed they were cheating. By the same reasoning if their triggers were not deliberately set up for bouncing then they were not cheating.

Do you see the difference?

manike

Also the use of questions does not mean statements.

 

[manike]

Originally posted by manike
If I have directly called Sergei a liar or directly said they intentionally cheated without putting in proviso's into my arguement about what could or could not have happened at that point then I apologise for it.

 

[pestilence]

Too far....

Well firstly, Hitler had an opinion on the Jewish people, does that make it inviolate just because he has the right?

I dont think there is need for an analogy like that on this board.

I can't be bothered with you any more Manike, I am done with this, if your next post does not include an apology for inferring, calling, intimating, whatever you damn well like, that the Russians are intentional cheats, then you're gone !
[/qoute]

do you actually have policy over this?
I dont belive p8intballer is about cencorship. If two people dont like each other then fine, as long as they dont swear, or break any decency laws, then let them have thier say?

Robbo, no offense, but banning Manike for not apologising is a very weak argument. People slag off other teams all the time. I personally think all pro teams cheat in one way or another, Wanna ban me too (again?)

I'm not inferring that Manike is right or wrong, or validating Robbo's point either, but just because you are a mod Robbo, dosent mean you can use that as a weapon to enforce your view point, unless you are backed by a clear policy about what constitutes a ban.

If you Ban him, then I belive you kill the very essence of this board...................

 

[goose]

And now for something completely different...

... well okay not really, but this whole discussion brings one question to mind.

Nowhere in the rules is there any provision for a player, who discovers that his marker is malfunctioning, be able to remove himself from the game without being penalized/suspended form the tournament.

What I would like to see is a section that says something along the lines of:
If at anytime during the course of a game, a player notices his marker behaving in a manner that is contradictory to the rules, they will be allowed to remove themselves from the game without further penalty to the team or player. The player is then responsible for correcting the problem before the nest game.


Just some food for thought.

goose

 

[Buddha 3]

Too far....

Originally posted by pestilence



do you actually have policy over this?

Yes he does. He is the moderator of this forum, which means that, like Judge Dredd, he is the law. There are no strict rules and or guidelines set out when you first log on to this forum, and when the moderators feel that something is wrong or out of line, then they request people to alter there behavior (as has been evident in the past). In other words, policy is as the moderators say it is. Sounds a bit tyrannical, but you'll find that this forum is a lot more tolerant than a lot of other boards out there on the web.

But back to the matter at hand, I think that an apology was not uncalled for. When team X has been dragging the reputation of team Y through the mud, usually one of the mods jumps in, I would like to refer you to a topic about cheating, which involved a heated argument between Corrosion Young Guns and (if I remember correctly) team Sad. There one of the mods jumped in too.
Now Russian Legion has always been a team that has tried to play as clean as they can, and for that reason any reference, however remote, to cheating that involves their name cuts extra deep. And since there has been no evidence that they were cheating (and by that I mean breaking the rules with intent), it is no more than common courtesy to apologise. Nuff said.

PS Goose, I agree with you 100%!

 

[Robbo]

If I thought for just one second that anybody who reads these threads believes that I would ban anybody just because they disagreed with me, then I would ban myself in a heartbeat, you would not see me for dust !!!

As Buddha rightly points out, I am a moderator but that does not mean I can do what I like, well, I suppose it does, but for my own peace of mind and integrity, I would not ban anybody for a difference of opinion with my own.
I may be an arrogant ******* at times but I ain't that much of one and I always try to be true to myself and others!!!

Now, this thread had meandered here and there, dealing with ambiguous and sometimes misleading statements relating to the alleged intentions of the RL.

Just so I can clarify a few things, Manike, do you believe the RL knowingly went on to the field of play, fully aware that their guns were affected (or could potentially malfunction) by what they had only heard about happening with some other guns with regard to misfiring ?

And before you answer, bear in mind, that Sergei has already gone on record as saying that at no time had his guns displayed any such malfunctions, nor did he suspect that any of his guns could possibly be affected, which is reasonable since his team's guns had shown no similar problems up until then!!!!

 

[Robbo]

Too far....

Originally posted by pestilence


I dont think there is need for an analogy like that on this board.

I can't be bothered with you any more Manike, I am done with this, if your next post does not include an apology for inferring, calling, intimating, whatever you damn well like, that the Russians are intentional cheats, then you're gone !
[/qoute]

do you actually have policy over this?
I dont belive p8intballer is about cencorship. If two people dont like each other then fine, as long as they dont swear, or break any decency laws, then let them have thier say?

Robbo, no offense, but banning Manike for not apologising is a very weak argument. People slag off other teams all the time. I personally think all pro teams cheat in one way or another, Wanna ban me too (again?)

I'm not inferring that Manike is right or wrong, or validating Robbo's point either, but just because you are a mod Robbo, dosent mean you can use that as a weapon to enforce your view point, unless you are backed by a clear policy about what constitutes a ban.

If you Ban him, then I belive you kill the very essence of this board...................

There is no policy other than that wielded by our own conscience and principles but that does not mean we can do anything, the other mods would soon put me straight if that were the case.
but at the moment, the other mods who have commented have come down on the side of the need for an apology, so I don't think I am acting or rather thinking unilaterally on this.
And the real need for an apology is, the RL have prided themselves on not cheating (maybe hard for someone like you to believe) but it is anathema to them and to have somebody suggest otherwise, especially when they do not know the full facts and a denial (by Sergei) has been made, it is an insult and one that I will defend to the end.
You say it is weak, I say it is principled !!!
Nuff said on that !!
Robbo