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Solid balls in the UK....

JoseDominguez

New cut and carved spine!
Oct 25, 2002
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that's just elemental phosphorous....... hard to obtain anyway because it's so reactive. Spontaneously combusts once exposed to air.
Back to the topic.........anyone been hit by one of these "training rounds?" anyone in the states using them?
 

Red_Merkin

IMHO
Jul 9, 2001
1,418
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Montreal
you have to assume when calculating the impact force of a paintball, that the hardest the force will be is when it dosn't crumple on impact, and break.

Everyone knows bouncers (I get lots of those) hurt more, because you body absorbs the impact of the ball, instead of the force disipating as the ball breaks.
It's the same principal that car manufacturers use when designing crumple zones on automobiles to lessen impact in crashes.

So if a paintball hits you, and dosn't break (this is the worst case scenario) then the force =mass x acclelration.
If a solid training ball hits you and dosn't break (as it's designed not to) then the force = mass x acclleration.

If the mass is the same, and the velocity of the gun are the same, then the force is the same. It's physics. I don't make the laws, i just follow them.

Since there is a very good chance that a paintball may not break when it hits you, would it be fair to say that you have to calculate the safety risk based on the paint not breaking?
If the paintball maintains it's structural integrity on impact, then it has the same force as a solid training ball and if that amount of force is deemed to be safe, (ie not penetrating human flesh at any distance, or causing perminant internal injury or meeting the standards set by safety equiptment manufacturers) then you have to agree that the safety risk is the same for a solid ball as a paintball.

btw, i've been shot at with paint that is for all intents and purposes solid, (ie it bounced off my mask and loader from 40 feet) so you can't calculate for a paintball breaking every time, when assessing safety you have to assume that it's not going to break!

Josez, if i ever figure out who you are, i'm going to beat to you, death with a french stick? ;)
 

TOOLE

Banned
Feb 27, 2003
1,115
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Originally posted by JoseDominguez
that's just elemental phosphorous....... hard to obtain anyway because it's so reactive. Spontaneously combusts once exposed to air.
Back to the topic.........anyone been hit by one of these "training rounds?" anyone in the states using them?
i volunteer to be test monkey... just tell where this site is in the north west and i'll see if i can get there :)
 

JoseDominguez

New cut and carved spine!
Oct 25, 2002
3,185
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0
www.myspace.com
Originally posted by Red_Merkin
you have to assume when calculating the impact force of a paintball, that the hardest the force will be is when it dosn't crumple on impact, and break.

Everyone knows bouncers (I get lots of those) hurt more, because you body absorbs the impact of the ball, instead of the force disipating as the ball breaks.
It's the same principal that car manufacturers use when designing crumple zones on automobiles to lessen impact in crashes.

So if a paintball hits you, and dosn't break (this is the worst case scenario) then the force =mass x acclelration.
If a solid training ball hits you and dosn't break (as it's designed not to) then the force = mass x acclleration.

If the mass is the same, and the velocity of the gun are the same, then the force is the same. It's physics. I don't make the laws, i just follow them.

Since there is a very good chance that a paintball may not break when it hits you, would it be fair to say that you have to calculate the safety risk based on the paint not breaking?
If the paintball maintains it's structural integrity on impact, then it has the same force as a solid training ball and if that amount of force is deemed to be safe, (ie not penetrating human flesh at any distance, or causing perminant internal injury or meeting the standards set by safety equiptment manufacturers) then you have to agree that the safety risk is the same for a solid ball as a paintball.

btw, i've been shot at with paint that is for all intents and purposes solid, (ie it bounced off my mask and loader from 40 feet) so you can't calculate for a paintball breaking every time, when assessing safety you have to assume that it's not going to break!

Josez, if i ever figure out who you are, i'm going to beat off to you, death with a french stick? ;)
A paintball deforms on impact....... it uses up energy in that deformation and thus reduces the amount transmitted to the target.
I don't make the laws of physics either.
But I do get paid to teach them :)
Your getting force and force of impact mixed up........ both rounds have the same force....but it's exerted in different ways. The paintball uses most of it's energy to pop.
think about my earlier example.. water balloon or apple? which one would you rather be hit by at 200fps? same mass, same size....... one could take your head off.
As for the penetrating hits? it's been tested and solid ammo from a marker can penetrate.......it's what caused the problems in Scotland, doesn't matter how fast you fire a paintball, it will never be capable of inflicting a serious penetrating wound.

I've spoken to a couple of players who've been hit by these rounds now. both say turn the markers down as they "knack" or "F!cking hurt" as I was informed.

And I've just re-read your last line???????? help, why do you want to beat off to me? :)
 

Red_Merkin

IMHO
Jul 9, 2001
1,418
0
0
Montreal
did you actually read what I wrote (apart from the last line which somebody is kindly editing for me, thank you kindly, but please stop)

I said, when assessing safety, you have to assume that the paintball won't break, because that's the most damage that it will cause...
Yes there are other variables, how much deformation a solid ball will cause, but a solid ball will deform too. Take a look at high speed video footage of a baseball deforming when hit by a bat. Although a baseball appears to be solid, it will deform quite a bit. So a solid paintball will have some amount of deformation too.
The unknown variable is how much difference there is between a paintball that doesn't break, and a solid ball. If the size and weight are the same, and the ball doesn't break on impact then the amount of force on impact will be in theory, the same.

Paintballs that won't break do exist, we got a load of Zap two years ago after campaign cup, and this stuff would ricochet off trees. Dangerous yes, lethal, no. I got shot with it, and I'm still standing... so I know that even a solid paintball that won't break on target is still not capable of seriously hurting someone.

As for the tests in Scotland, they were done by loading a shot with a different density (therefore a different mass) to prove solid shots from paintball guns could be lethal.
There's a big difference between a .68 calibre shot of a rubber paintball, and a .68 calibre of a solid steel ball!

So
the variables are:
the weight of the ball... the solid ball is advertised as being the same weight as a standard paintball
the speed of the ball... both are being shot at 300 fps, and should be travelling at the same velocity
the amount of force absorbed by the ball... if a paintball is too hard and doesn't break, it should absorb a comparable amount of energy to a solid ball, and transfer a similar amount of weight to the target. If there is a massive difference in this factor, then the whole thing doesn't work, but for two objects to be the same weight and volume they must have similar structural characteristics.



Does a solid training ball pose more of a risk than a premium paintball? Of course
Does a solid training ball pose more of a risk than a badly stored and very hardened paintball? Probably not.
Do current safety standards account for players using improperly stored paint? I don't know, it hurts like hell, but I've still got all my body parts, so probably no.
Do players ever use improperly stored, hardened paint? You bet your ass they do, cause I've been shot with some seriously hard paint, and it hurts like hell!

I'm aware that you teach Physics...but that doesn't meant that you don't actually have to read what I've written. In fact as a teacher I'd expect that you pay more attention to the argument being presented. If I'm wrong, then I'll admit to it, but you have yet to actually address what I've written!

And whoever is editing my posts, please stop. You have the job of editing out inappropriate material, not changing my post for your own pleasure. Thank you.