Time to face the music and dance Mark and Headrock

[duffistuta]

So 790 and 6, I seem to remember both of you insisting very strongly, in this very forum, that WMD would be found - how do you feel about our two Govts climb down?

In the immortal words of Johnny Rotten - Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

 

[Tom Tom]

I remember discussing this with many of our US friends on these boards and they were very pro war because of 9/11 (11/9 for the UK)

They were very sure of the WMD and Saddams threat. Now dont get me wrong I am glad he is gone but I had my resevations about war, and the way we were sold it but the Govts. and TV.

I think this flags up how shocking Bush is as a world leader (you only have to read Micheal Moores book Stupid White Men to realsie how corrupt it really all is) and I think people need to stop being so gung-ho without any real evidence and proof and only after wards when they cant find it go..."Oh well"

Rant over

 

[JTHM]

Hogwash. He had WMD's, where they went is the question. Undisputable facts of his use and posession going back to the 1980's and determined by the UN ( before they were kicked out in the early 90's).

Was Intel poor in the latest instance? Very possible, but to think Saddam has been the poster boy of complying with UN resolutions is just plain rediculous.

He's gone, lets move on and hope stability can be achieved in Iraq, that's the most important goal now.

 

[Jones the Paint Magnet]

Like he said - we know he had them 'cause we sold him the damn things!

Bit like Rumsfeld's ex-company selling reactors to North Korea and then accusing them of making weapons grade material from them . . . I guess common sense and morality have never stood in the way of good business for US/UK

I'd have appreciated our governments being a bit more honest as to why they went to war - I don't like Saddam, use plastics and drive a car, so I can't go complaining about their motives with a spot-free conscience, but in order to find a "mcguffin" solution which the general public couldn't argue with, they've both tied themselves in knots. Now, as the quote goes "the skies are dark with the wings of chickens come home to roost".

And yes, I'd love a stable Iraq. If perhaps we paid the power workers their wages instead of offering millions on Saddam bounty, and concentrated on hospitals, schools and infrastructure instead of pumping crude form the oilfields, this would raise a bit of much needed goodwill with the Iraqis and speed up the process.

 

[JTHM]

Originally posted by Jones the Paint Magnet
I guess common sense and morality have never stood in the way of good business for US/UK

Heh, well we're not the only ones, don't expect that to change...ever.

And yes, I'd love a stable Iraq. If perhaps we paid the power workers their wages instead of offering millions on Saddam bounty, and concentrated on hospitals, schools and infrastructure instead of pumping crude form the oilfields, this would raise a bit of much needed goodwill with the Iraqis and speed up the process.

Seeing as how everytime they get the pipelines up and running some dumbass insurgents/opposition sappers blow them up again. Kind of hard to get money flowing so they can start rebuilding with this crap going on.

 

[Jones the Paint Magnet]

Well, I for one don't expect the Iraqis to benfit from any oil sales whilst the current company is pumping it. They have shareholders to pay and I don't think any of them live in Rumalah

It's not just oil - there's no coherent plans or equipment in place for rebuilding - the same forces who are trained and equipped for destroying armies are now being forced into a peacekeeping role. (kind of a reverse Mogadishu).

This isn't good - the longer troops stay there without actively helping the locals, the more ill feeling is going to happen and the more support the loyalist saboteurs will get. Then when losses become politically unsustainable, the troops withdraw and in rolls Saddam again with his WMDs and brutalises the civilians into submission again.

Or am I getting ahead of myself here?

 

[duffistuta]

>>>He's gone, lets move on

Um, right - maybe we shouldn't have had the Nuremberg trials either.

IF evidence was fabricated and electorates misled in a rush to war, then personally I'd like to know about it, wouldn't you?

 

[headrock6]

Originally posted by duffistuta
So 790 and 6, I seem to remember both of you insisting very strongly, in this very forum, that WMD would be found - how do you feel about our two Govts climb down?

In the immortal words of Johnny Rotten - Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

Ive untucked my tail and im ready to roll.....


Do I feel a little duped??Sure..I was very surprised that mass amounts havent been found yet...And so should almost every country in the world..France,Germany,and Russias objections were never about whether he had them or not,but simply if there was a better way to DISARM him..Its amazing that Saddam played the worst game of maybe I do,maybe I dont,got called out on it and turns out besides being a ruthless dictator he was a ****ing idiot as well..But my views about why a war was necessary with Iraq also had alot more reasons than WMD's though those certainly were at the top of my list..If Bush decided to go with 100,000 people already have died and we can expect the same amount over the next few years,lets end this,I would have supported that too..


But Duff, as you complain about the US/UK alliance,the UN this week under the brilliant Kofi Annan ask the US to call for regime change in Liberia,free an oppressed people,and play worlds policeman..Kinda hypocritical dont ya think???Oh thats right,2 of the worlds largest untapped oil reserves arent hinging on the balance so France is down with the cause..But unless its front page news not many get riled up for it..

Through all this ive come to realize there will always be a love/hate relationship throughout the world with the US..The UN desperately need our troops in Liberia because honestly,unless the troops are willing to die to protect these people,anything else is a joke..Sure we could send the French and Dutch(sorry Jay) but as time has showed,they high tail it and run and lots of people die when the warlords get a little antsy..

The truth is,the US will be drawn into conflict all around the world because as shown,the world will insist on it..And the world will hate us both for intervening and refusing to intervene..Its something im getting used to..

Duff-I love my military because I love my country,not the other way around..

-6

 

[duffistuta]

>>>But Duff, as you complain about the US/UK alliance...

Me? Complain? I just asked you a question...you sound like a politician mate, wriggling on the hook and bringing in other issues - you want to watch that...

 

[headrock6]

Originally posted by duffistuta
>>>But Duff, as you complain about the US/UK alliance...

Me? Complain? I just asked you a question...you sound like a politician mate, wrggling on the hook and bringing in other issues - you want to watch that...

No,I think I clearly stated what I had to say about WMD's ..The scientist with nuclear parts in his rose garden saying they would restart the program as soon as sanctions were lifted says alot about Mr.Hussien..I have no doubts if we left him,North Korea would look like a 2 year old compared to what Hussien would be..

Does are intelligence suck??Yep..But at least we wont have to rely on them as North Korea isnt trying to hide the fact they got em..

Give it about 10 years and we'll see if the Middle East is reshaped and the world is a better place..Only time will tell...