Pro, Am and Novice - an outdated concept?

[paddeo]

I am probably not qualified to start this debate as I have less to lose than perhaps those in a Pro team,
but here goes anyway.

I think that the division titles "Pro", "Am" and "Novice" are outdated and useless.
I first thought about this when someone asked me what division our team, Kool Running,
would be entering campaign cup in. When I answered novice they said no way, you guys have been playing for ages.

That last point shows that the common paintball definition of the divisions is unclear. What defines a novice team?
You could have been playing for the 6 last years, does that make you an Am player because of the 6 years or
a novice player because you only ever played once a month with no training.
Compare that to some Pro players who have been playing only 2 years, yet train twice a week.
These guys are often young, fast, quick and totally devoted to paintball.

What is "Pro" about the Pro teams? My understanding of a professional sportsman is that his main
income comes from that sport. I do not know of anyone who makes his or her living from playing paintball yet.

What is so amateurish about Am teams? I am sure most Am teams would not like to be thought of as amateurish.

When I try and describe the 3 divisions to non-paintballers I describe Pro teams as the top ranking teams,
which get the most sponsorship and travel the most. Players on these teams are often involved in other aspects of
the paintball industry. Amateur teams are one the whole less experienced than Pro, having less resources,
may well travel less and will be beaten more often than they will beat Pro teams.

Novice teams make up the rest (this is probably why the novice division is normally the larger division at
a millennium event) They tend to travel less if at all and will get beaten by pro and am teams more often than not.

Whereas many will disagree with some points in my descriptions most will agree that few if any teams fit
the standard non-paintball description of Pro, Am or Novice.

I am not suggesting that I have the answers only that it I feel the current situation is wrong \ unclear.

Pat

 

[Flash-Bugout]

Is it perhaps time we move forward to some sort of player registration scheme?

Also, should we move away from Pro, Am, Nov, (and Entry), and have Division 1, Division 2, etc. plus maybe a non-league group, with no trophies, for teams who play only once every couple of months, or new and scratch teams.

Then team rankings could be performance based, with an annual promotion/relegation thing going on, just like "proper" (read 'official') sports, giving non-paintballers a chance to understand the game a little - although they don't know exactly what is happening on the field, they know that Team A bringing the flag back to their start gate means three points in a league, and a moving towards promotion.

It also solves the problem of a scratch team, say "Cheese & Pickle", entering in the bottom division because they haven't played together before, but being made up of (for arguments sake) the likes of Marcus Neilson, Ollie Lang, Lasoya, and so on.

Maybe it's time to make it compulsory to join the relevant governing body in your country?

A few problems I can forsee with this scheme/idea:

Is a tourney organiser going to turn away two or three teams because they are not members of the UKPSF, and lose all that entry fee money?

Will there be enough teams out there committed enough (and financially able) to play once a month?

What if a player on a team squad only plays twice a year, will that affect rankings?

Will the teams that are entering a tourney be able to submit team rosters far enough in advance that the organiser can sort out divisions properly?

Will the tourneys be hosted in only one region, or spread evenly around the country?

How many random rubbish questions can I type?

Will I ever stop.......

 

[John C]

Paintball is different to other sports in that some teams would rather play at a lower level and easily max every game than play at their own level.

When teams can enter tourneys in a lower division just by changing there name then i really dont see any way of stopping this.

 

[Alien]

You can solve that by having a list of tournament players and there team. If you get them changing there team name to play lower divisions, you can still see that the players are of higher experience and therefore should not be in the lower divisions.

Just a thought

Alien

 

[goose]

Yes the whole thing could be solved with player registration & databases. But the problem is getting organizers to use it. The Millennium series & NPPL have to co-operate & share player information & someone has to administrate it.

Just think of what could be done with a proper system:
1) Keep track of problem players & punish the bad apples.
2) Assign player ratings - 1-10 for example with one being first tournament to 10 being all-world-super-star
3) Using the player ratings you could then rank the teams by adding the player ratings and coming up with a team value. Using the team value would stop all the sandbagging that takes place.

Again the 2 problems are Administration & money that would be required to put this system into operation.

goose

 

[Village Idiot]

An age old problem

Regulation has been talked about for years and is unlikely to happen to everyone's satisfaction. Furthermore, there are too many ways to get round regs.

Paintball Tournie organisers just want your money at the end of the day, but to make their events attractive to customers, they need to be seen to show 'fairness' to attract the customer, ie they use the seedings system. And who seeds? They do of course, and go both on results and the length of time a team has been playing.

I fully endorse Paddeo's comments on entry by name. Just because his team has been in existence for yonks does not automatically denote capability. Some teams just play for fun and don't want to progress to the big league. Maybe they can't afford to play that often or maybe they just don't want to. Some people have lives outside Paintball!!

A division system such as the football league is the only fair way really, and that needs designed to suit the sport and needs to be administered properly. That way, the likes of Kool Runnings can play at their level and not be forced to play at the level of an organisers choosing.

So how do we deal with known players 'guesting' for other teams. By a players register I suppose, but then the tournie organisers will have to be particularly vigilant in spotting that. All adds to the work already required to host a tournie and probably will add to the cost to the customer as well.

 

[go-one]

Player / team registration

Last time I checked the NPPL / MILL Series did have player registration and rules on who was what and who they could play for. All very noble, however, a rule / procedure is as much use as square paintballs if it is not enforced or used. The answere is already there, we just need enforcement.

Outside of the NPPL / MILL series it just requires the info to be available. I'm sure tourny organisers would be happy to follow the 'lists' if they were available. You could always put them on the Mill Series website :-/............

 

[LARSEN]

Soccer way.

Let's do it like they do it anywher else.

Thos that can't cut it in the 1 division gets sent back in to 2'nd and swap with the best from 2 division.

There are some PRO's that has not even made it in to the finals.

Some might only be PRO because their sponsors want the too.

You have to earn the right to play PRO.

 

[Pave]

I think the Novice bracket is a joke fullstop. Perhaps it should be renamed AM B or something.... So that it is at least a realistic protrayal of the skill of the teams that play within it. I was under the impression that the NOv division was for local teams who wanted to try tourney out not - seasoned players who have never won anything.....


The problem is that with the top Am teams now often employing 1, 2 or more pro players, people are recognising that they don't stand a chance in the actual AM bracket. Hence they play novice.

I don't think the two pro players allowed rule is a good one. I know in the long term its good for our game to play better people and all - I'd just rather they were in the appropriate division. If our team is drawn against another AM team I would prefer to be playing guys who aren't on Avalanche or Lockouts rosta.


Just my 2 cents.

 

[P'D Off]

Let me get this right.

Are people for or against a body that will register all the players in their country?

I can not speak on behalf of the UKPSF, but I am sure that the MAJORITY of regular tournament players are not registered with them in the UK.

Lets try and put this into perspective.

My name is Joe (Scouse Git) Bloggs and I am captain for Hucknall Town FC. (Unibond League). (Never heard of them ? Doesn't surprise me !)
In the next round of the Inter Tortilla Cup, we have drawn Brighton & Hove Albion. Now for Hucknall, this would be a daunting prospect. However, as I went to school in Merseyside with a few of the players who now play for Liverpool, I call in a few favours, and have Robbie Fowler, and the rest of the team playing for me.

We obviously whoop the oppostions ass!

Do you think that would happen in football ? Like hell, because they have a registration system and a governing body, paintball doesn't.

Where do most people buy their new toys (markers)? Local store, or mail / internet ? Lets say that John Smith buys a new fangled electro all singing and dancing marker with all the extras for £1000. Is he going to miss a £5 surcharge to register him with his countries governing body ?

Every tourney that John plays, his details should be logged and reported to the governing body. I am not saying that because John plays every other weekend, he should be a pro player, however if he turns up on site with teams that win everything 3 out of every 4 times then maybe it should be noted.

Maybe an aggregate scoring system for a team (based upon individual players rankings) should determine a teams status, but how many teams know until the day of a tournament (or the day before if they are lucky) who is playing for them. This would mean that a tournament organiser would not know until the day of a tournament which division each team is playing in. (Try using a Lap Top though, would certainly help)

However a lot of teams Do know who is going to be playing for them at any event.

Lets look at some of the guest teams out there, JCS Inferno, Diablo Vip, FFOF, MUFS (remember them) etc. These are all "Guest Teams" however they do have individual skills. Which division should they be in ?

Lets say that a team was entered by a guy called Marcus Davis (we all remember him, right ?) Which division would you put him and 6 other first time players in if they entered the Campaign cup as The Predators? Would it be by Captains name, team name, or the fact that 6 of 7 are first time players?

Without some sort of registration system, we have nobody to blame but ourselves. People can say bad things about the UKPSF if they wish, however it is the closest we have to a governing body in the UK.

If tournament organisers want to start sending disclaimers along with score sheets to me, I will start doing a log of who plays where, and does how well. Lets be honest, according to the general opinion of tournament players in the UK, there are not that many tournaments, so the job can not be that hard !!!

However, anybody can sign a sheet as J Bloggs unless we have proper registration procedures.

This is only my humble opinion. I am sure that people will pick fault with it, that is human nature, however I care for my sport, and will do anything I can to see it progress.

The One and Only (Accept No Substitutes)

P'D Off

PS Some of the stuff that I write may well annoy people. This is not what I set out to do. I submit my comments to get a discussion going so that we can learn from what people say. I take no sides, I bear no grudges. Your opinions, good or bad, are appreciated.

If you want to shake my hand, or wring my neck, I will be at Bullswood on the 18/11