Gun Control

[John Molloy]

Originally posted by JoseDominguez
Well, no, not really. My point is, that guns and cars are two different things, ban either and you save some lives don't you. Rather than saying "oh, we can't stop that one, so we have to leave the other one alone too". It's not much of an argument. Tell the next gun-shot victime "it's ok, you could have been run over" that, I'm sure they'll perk right up.

Look at it this way:
Ban motor vehicles
Pro: less people killed in road accidents.
Cons: Difficult to travel, impossible to continue big-business, response to crime/accident down as the police/paramedics have to walk etc... etc... etc...You can argue this one forever.

Ban guns
Pro: Reduction in number of people shot and killed(and one is too many)..
Cons: A few people are a bit bored until they find another hobby. I can't really think of anymore for the UK, unless you are particularly bothered by foxes in your henhouse, are you?

The point being made is that a ban has already been in place on hand guns and the only upshot is that the Yardee under culture are carrying illegal firearms, the number of illegal fire arms in this country is spiralling out of control and simply banning them has made no differance. By banning anything that looks like a gun nothing constructive occurs, no differance in the number of deaths by gun crime will be seen and then their will be calls for stricter controls that won't address the problems. Their is an article in the Observer (I think) that looks at the RAP music scene where Respect is a big theme and is only attainable through the carrying and use of a gun. Banning PBall won't help banning Rap music might.

 

[JoseDominguez]

Well, that's gonna get you some responses. Read back through the posts, we were discussing why that ban occured in the first place and what effects it has had, I think you missed the point, if they hadn't been banned then there would be an awful lot more, I'm not saying this again. IF LEGAL GUNS ARE AVAILABLE then it's easier to get hold of an illegal one, you can impoert legally then sell on illegaly, you can steal from a stockist, club or collector, you can order spares and construct copies, or you can illegaly import them. At the moment, the only NEW guns entering this country are illegally imported ones.
If I wanted to get a handgun now, It would take me quite a while to even find out how (I know, a criminal could do it quicker), before the ban I could have walked two hundred yards to my mate Petes house, used his spare key and borrowed his dad's fully legal pistol (from his locked cabinet) it's Sunday, they're out at the local right now. See my point? If I'd needed it I could get it, until then it was safe and legal, any gun I got now would be illegal and ready to send me (and anyone else connected)off to prison if found.

 

[JohnJ]

Originally posted by John Molloy
Their is an article in the Observer (I think) that looks at the RAP music scene where Respect is a big theme and is only attainable through the carrying and use of a gun. Banning PBall won't help banning Rap music might.

I'm not in favour of banning things on a whim but you've got my vote

Incidently while we're on about banning things I predict that smoking will be banned in public places within 5 years...

 

[JoseDominguez]

The fire-arms ban was a good thing, otherwise my collection of blunt objects was obsolete.

 

[Wolf]

You English amaze me

Okay, I am an American, grew up hunting and owning firearms (and developing a healthy respect for them) and am licensed to carry a pistol as a private citizen (training, clean record, etc., etc.). We aren't looking for trouble and I hope I never have to use a firearm on a human, but I know that if SOMEONE ELSE makes that decision AGAINST me or mine I will and am glad I have the ability. I own a number of long guns, shotguns, and pistols, and I have a large, fire-proof safe that holds them securely (key and combination).

1. As many of you point out, nuts will be nuts and a lethal weapon will be found if they want to go on a rampage. A malcontent that wants your wallet, your body, or anything else will go for it if they feel the potential risk to them is low enough.
2. By taking away the defensive capabilities of law abiding citizens, you simply create a whole lot more sheep to be victims for the predetors that disregard laws anyway. Violent crime has risen sharply in Australia, Canada, and England after their firearms bans took place.
3. A firearm is the great equilizer for many that have no other means. An elderly mother when faced by a criminal (even unarmed) will not have a chance. Not knowing who may be armed makes many criminals think twice before robbing someone (the criminal numbers plunge in US states that have shall issue CPL laws). And an armed customer in that McDonald's (I admit I do not know the details of the case stated in the thread) may have dropped the criminal before he was able to do any damage.

The things I find more scary over on your island(s) is the fact that people keep trying to legistlate how you can raise your kids and such (the Scotland corporal punishment ban comes to mind). Once you took the power away from parents and then let the government start making you a grand experiment in peace, love, etc. (no war toys, think nice thoughts, etc. -- Oh, and yes, we have some nuts like that over here, too), you were doomed to letting those that disregard the rules have a free reign (or turn caring people who discipline their kids when needed into criminals!). It is crazy. You guys better take control over there, and fast, since your future will get darker instead of lighter.

Fight the EU's metric system and hold dear your love of milk chocolate

Rick

 

[JoseDominguez]

Yeah, we've got it all wrong, I agree.
I got jumped in a sub-way (underpass, not train station) by a group of four idiots a while back, by the time the police got there a lot of damage had been done, however, if the gang had access to fire-arms they wouldn't have been so badly hurt.
I like living in a country where I am horrified by a drive-by being reported, rather than being used to it.
As for violent crime rising sharply since they took away our hand-guns??? not the point really, as we never had that many to start with and we've never had the right to bear arms.
It's different for the US, you all have them, so it's too late to change it now. I like it the way it is here, if any civil minded individuals decided to defend their rights over here, we wouldn't have anything like the Branch Davidian Seige at Waco.
And as you say, if someone wants something badly enough, they will get it, like your guns, if the catch you while they are in the safe then how will you stop them? Do you pack a glock in the shower? The only way to ensure no-one steals your gun is to not have any.
I commend you on your right to own as many lethal weapons as you want and to beat your children at will. Congratulations. I'll carry on, safe in the knowledge that when I visit the US, I can simply obtain a fire-arm by petty theft from an old lady.

I can't see how you can justify it really, if they are locked up in your safe, what good are they for self defence? if they aren't locked up, then they are easily accessible, catch 22. I'm not knocking the US, it's a totaly different situation to the UK.

 

[Jones the Paint Magnet]

Quite right JD. If I lived in the US I'd probably apply for a license as there's no other way to defend yourself from an armed criminal, and the best way to do that (no guns for anyone) is no longer an option.

Yes we have illegal guns in the UK - the two Brum kids were apparently killed with a MAC-10 (not sure if it was a re-activated or not) which has always been illegal in the UK. The police are always very interested in these outlets and in light of recent publicity will probably be making these a priority now.

The majority of gun crime in the US comes from guns legally purchased and then either stolen from their users or taken from users and turned against them. Remove the first part of the equation, you will see a marked reduction in the second, which is why we have such a low rate of gun related crime compared to countries where firearms are legal and easily available. Anyone seen "Bowling for Columbine"? You can get a rifle if you open a bank account!

Yes, people kill people. People with firearms just kill people a hell of a lot more efficiently than those without - including themselves whilst cleaning them or family members who get curious about unsecured pistols. Imagine two gangfights - gangfight "a" are using 9mm's, gangfight "b" are using slices of smoked trout - anyone care to speculate on casualty statistics?

In light of the Midlands incident where those two teenage girls were gunned down, I heard replicas and airsoft mentioned on the news as items the government were looking to ban (as apparently these can be converted in illicit workshops to fire live rounds. Wouldn't want to chance a barrel not designed for proper munitions, but I guess the people who are using these aren't the sharpest tools in the box anyway). If there is any time to distance ourselves from firearms, now appears to be it.

 

[}{y8ri|)]

This is getting to me NOW!
Fair enough ban fire-arms ie semi handguns and hand machine guns.....But should a paint marker be classed as a firearm...NO cos it aint it cant kill well i suspose it could but it would be quitehard to do...



CHEERS BATTY

 

[Jones the Paint Magnet]

Fortunately Steve (see earlier in the thread) has already been working on this and educating the Home Office about paintball markers. Even though I play rec about twice a year I shall be subscribing to the UKPSF to help support him and the organisation - and shame on me for not doing it sooner.

If we pro-actively approach the government and make our own constructive suggestions for self-legislation/licensing I'm sure they will look far more favourably on paintball (especially given our safety record) than those who just say "Don't you dare ban us".

 

[Wolf]

Originally posted by Jones the Paint Magnet
Anyone seen "Bowling for Columbine"? You can get a rifle if you open a bank account!

We can agree to disagree on gun ownership, but please do not use anything from Michael Moore to prove a point. That bank in the film is in my home state (and up north, away from the big cities), and they direct you to a licensed gun dealer who follows proper federal guidelines before you can get the firearm. Moore's fabrication for his movie is fictitious (a number of things in that film are lies, including the kids going to the bowling class that morning - they skipped). The key is getting a fine deer rifle as opposed to a toasters or what not when opening an account, and that is deer hunting country.

Anyway, good luck to you in the UK. I hope you never get into a situation when you (or yours) needed the protection of a firearm and yet couldn't have it.