Why Can't the US be like Euro?

[JTHM]

Welp, just to introduce meself to this board, (which I"ve been following for quite some time) I'm a 2yr vet of the NPPL here in the States, and play in the AM-B/ Novice Division.

Ok, first things first.... Since I've been involved with PB (6yrs) I've been indocrinated into the belief that this sport was based on honest play, you're hit ,you're out...nuff said.

I've grown with this sport and bitched my head off when I see BS tatics being used to win games. So much so, that I took up reffing just to get satisfaction out of handing out penalties and having Velcro parties at local events to make me feel better.

Alas....I read PGI every month and and lurk around in here everyday, and all I see is that when you go to Europe, the Reffing(Marshalling) is nothing but forthright and just.( alright nobody is perfect, but from what I'm told, top notch anyhow)

I just got back from WC, need I say more?...... Alright I will, possibly the worst event I've had the displeasure of spending my money on. Hell, even Vegas with the schedule problems was a joy compared with WC-2k2 as far as Reffing was concerned.

A total mess, ask anyone around, Jesus, I saw more Playing on than I've seen in 6 events combined......it was a joke. I've yet to find more people so complacent about doing their job, it was so bad we had people having full out Brawls, swinging Tanks and all, because the Reffing staff was so incompentent. Seriously people, overshooting was the norm rather than the exception, and it was only a matter of time before people started throwing punches...what has this sport become??

Now my point... Why the Hell aren't Euro Reffs being Brought over here to Officiate? It's obvious to all that you have your **** together and we don't. Even US promoters can't deny the fact.

Sorry for the rant, not a nice intro to this board, but I had to vent, it just seems that this is one of more intelligent boards on the Web.

Peace

 

[Baca Loco]

'Bout time you started posting

I'll give you another reason to post here--the people who need to see this stuff actually come here and read it (though it's certain to cut down on my invites to all those cool powerbroker breakfasts, ah, well )
A large part of the problem with our reffing revolves around a couple of issues; first place points for reffing are a gimme--nobody has to do more than show up to earn them (see Dynasty in Vegas); there is no strong leadership at the top related to this issue for whatever reason; and the team numbers have exploded in the last two years making the events ever larger and more unwieldy and consequently the reffing has suffered.
(Another reason the 10-man fields were practically devoid of refs is some of the Ams who agreed to ref routinely showed up late or didn't bother to show up at all--demonstrating, among other things, both a lack of integrity and total disgregard for all the other teams. One wonders if they still got paid?)
However, bringing Euro refs isn't an answer. The answer is fixing the problem. [Besides there were some Euro refs at WC who were as incompetent as our own home grown ones. Edit addition--so it's clear that wasn't intended to tar ALL the Euro refs who were present just the select incompetent few.]

 

[Tony Montana]

Welp, just to introduce myself to this board, I'm a 10yr vet of the NPPL here in the States, and have played approximately 20 events in Europe over the past 6-7 years.

I like the Millenium events. I think they put on a good show. My problem is that so many people believe that the European events are near perfect and the US events are so horrible. It simply is not the case.

The worst reffing that I have ever experienced personally was at this years Swedish event (one that historically has the best reffing of any event). Moose (the Ultimate at Euro events) was a guest to the World Cup and acting as a secondary ultimate type ref this year. I heard as many complaints about him as I did any other ref at the Cup. The Millenium events have problems

My point is that reffing is good and bad at every event, in every country, in every series. It isn't a U.S. or NPPL problem. It is a sore loser looking for an excuse problem.
(JTHM - don't take that personally. It isn't meant to be.)

Let's suppose for an instant that the Millenium reffing is sooo much better. And let's face the fact that the venues for the most part are better.

The NPPL events do not charge vendors much money at all for booth space. They trade merchandise in the form of prizes for booth space. The Millenium charges a good/fair fee for the booth space. They use this money for nicer venues, more staff, better marketing. The NPPL uses the tradeable commodity of booth space for prizes.

In the Millennium events, the Novice teams get a trophy. The Amateur teams win around $1200 - $2000 in cash, and the pros win around $3000 to $5000. In the NPPL the winning Novice teams got around $8,000 in prizes. The winning Amateur team win around $12,000, and the Pro's win $15,000. At the World Cup the Novice and Rookie divisions got a combined total prize package of about $40,000.

If the Novice and Rookie teams were really concerned about having venues and reffing more like the Millenium events, they would agree to pay to play, and get no prizes for winning, and hope to parlay their winning into sponsorship, like the Millenium teams do. This would free up about $150,000 in capital to put into venues and reffing.

All the Amateur, Novice, and Rookie teams complain about the prizes now. What would happen if they got a trophy and a handshake?


Before you start to jump on my numbers, understand that I am simply guessing at the numbers. I believe they would be in the right ballpark, but didn't research the actual numbers for complete accuracy.

I like the Millennium events. They do a lot of things that I would love to see in the states. But, SIMPLY AND HONESTLY, the reffing isn't better. At times it's good, at times it sucks. Just like every other bit of reffing in every other sport, in every other coutry/nation/region.

If the players want to trade prizes for MORE and BETTER refs and a better venues, that's what you should be telling PSP. That is a problem, coupled with a possible solution, and seems reasonable to me.

Again - I do like the Millenium events. I just don't think they are nearly as perfect as some people make them out to be, and some people blindly believe them to be. The NPPL is the big boy of tournament paintball - everyone is always looking to knock the big boy down. And the select few US players who get to go play these events obviously tell those who don't how wonderful and great they are. It's just like how great every party that you didn't get to in high school was great. The Millenniums are fun, they often have very well planned and well thought out marketing of the events. The venues range from stadiums to grassy knolls beside a high way. The reffing is about what you get at most other events. The prizes suck. The women are great in Sweden, and horrible in Portugal. One event was held in the gay capital of Europe, and another was held during the gay pride festival. So -- some things are great, some are very bad. Some things are good, some are not so good. Not the greatest things since sliced bread, but definitely there are things there that we could learn from, and definitely there are things here that they could incorporate into their events and it would be better for them.

Just another way to look at things.

 

[Baca Loco]

A kinder, gentler cow

Hi, Tony. don't be a stranger. Every reasonable voice ought to be heard.

 

[JTHM]

The very reason why I posted this here..... education is key....and I guess I just got me some.

But answer me this, why is it that when we played a PRO Euro team( nope won't say) we actually had a fighting chance, they walked away when shot, and when we play US AM-Pro they get ungodly breaks that leave us fustrated?

Why Should we play anymore?.....or pick up their habits and Cheat like they do and continue on?

Tony, really now do you think I care about prizes?? Hell NO!
I don't compete in this circuit for booty....it's all about playing at the highest level. I could play low end tournies and collect cash +prizes.

Sorry Tony, I don't mean to insult, but I'm sure you know what I mean. If an average (rec ref) were to be present in our game against the AA's it would have come down to a 3-on -2 our favor...(now don't get me wrong I'm not saying we'd win) but at the very least we'd of had a chance. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Like I told my Captain, we don't play on and wipe so we're at a serious disadvantage, and he said that "compromise was not an option".

There you have it.....we suck, always will as long as Compromise is not a option.

Welp, atleast I get to ref soon and get to have a Velcro party and show the youg'ns the way it should be.

 

[cjohns]

JTHM- It is good to hear that you guys play clean. You guys are a dying breed. Also good to see you play for the passion of the sport and not some prizes. I am always happy with a trophy to show that I kicked ass!!!

Tony- No one should care about prizes. Who cares if they suck. Do you mean to tell me that you play paintball just for the chance to win an IR3 or a gear bag at an event. If that is what you are saying, then that is sad. If it isn't, then I apologize.

 

[TJ 2]

Tony - that gay thing....that's a plus, right?

Or maybe it's just me...

Anyhows, gotta agree with everyone else here - Millennium is right, ditch prizes for tha lower levels and put money into reffing cos it's all about the competition. From my first novice day to playing Pro, I never once gave 2 ****s about prizes...all about tha playing.

 

[Buddha 3]

In defense of some of the American refs:
I've been judged by American pro teams, by European pro teams, and European am teams. Some of the American teams that I've seen reffing at European events were great, some of it was awful (Dynasty at Amsterdam, that was a mockery! ). But most of the US teams that I have experience with as refs, did a very good job.

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by Tony Montana
Welp, just to introduce myself to this board, I'm a 10yr vet of the NPPL here in the States, and have played approximately 20 events in Europe over the past 6-7 years.

I like the Millenium events. I think they put on a good show. My problem is that so many people believe that the European events are near perfect and the US events are so horrible. It simply is not the case.

The worst reffing that I have ever experienced personally was at this years Swedish event (one that historically has the best reffing of any event). Moose (the Ultimate at Euro events) was a guest to the World Cup and acting as a secondary ultimate type ref this year. I heard as many complaints about him as I did any other ref at the Cup. The Millenium events have problems

My point is that reffing is good and bad at every event, in every country, in every series. It isn't a U.S. or NPPL problem. It is a sore loser looking for an excuse problem.
(JTHM - don't take that personally. It isn't meant to be.)

Let's suppose for an instant that the Millenium reffing is sooo much better. And let's face the fact that the venues for the most part are better.

The NPPL events do not charge vendors much money at all for booth space. They trade merchandise in the form of prizes for booth space. The Millenium charges a good/fair fee for the booth space. They use this money for nicer venues, more staff, better marketing. The NPPL uses the tradeable commodity of booth space for prizes.

In the Millennium events, the Novice teams get a trophy. The Amateur teams win around $1200 - $2000 in cash, and the pros win around $3000 to $5000. In the NPPL the winning Novice teams got around $8,000 in prizes. The winning Amateur team win around $12,000, and the Pro's win $15,000. At the World Cup the Novice and Rookie divisions got a combined total prize package of about $40,000.

If the Novice and Rookie teams were really concerned about having venues and reffing more like the Millenium events, they would agree to pay to play, and get no prizes for winning, and hope to parlay their winning into sponsorship, like the Millenium teams do. This would free up about $150,000 in capital to put into venues and reffing.

All the Amateur, Novice, and Rookie teams complain about the prizes now. What would happen if they got a trophy and a handshake?


Before you start to jump on my numbers, understand that I am simply guessing at the numbers. I believe they would be in the right ballpark, but didn't research the actual numbers for complete accuracy.

I like the Millennium events. They do a lot of things that I would love to see in the states. But, SIMPLY AND HONESTLY, the reffing isn't better. At times it's good, at times it sucks. Just like every other bit of reffing in every other sport, in every other coutry/nation/region.

If the players want to trade prizes for MORE and BETTER refs and a better venues, that's what you should be telling PSP. That is a problem, coupled with a possible solution, and seems reasonable to me.

Again - I do like the Millenium events. I just don't think they are nearly as perfect as some people make them out to be, and some people blindly believe them to be. The NPPL is the big boy of tournament paintball - everyone is always looking to knock the big boy down. And the select few US players who get to go play these events obviously tell those who don't how wonderful and great they are. It's just like how great every party that you didn't get to in high school was great. The Millenniums are fun, they often have very well planned and well thought out marketing of the events. The venues range from stadiums to grassy knolls beside a high way. The reffing is about what you get at most other events. The prizes suck. The women are great in Sweden, and horrible in Portugal. One event was held in the gay capital of Europe, and another was held during the gay pride festival. So -- some things are great, some are very bad. Some things are good, some are not so good. Not the greatest things since sliced bread, but definitely there are things there that we could learn from, and definitely there are things here that they could incorporate into their events and it would be better for them.

Just another way to look at things.

Mr Montana, I have been to a lot more NPPL's than you have been to Millenniums and I will tell you one thing, nobody's saying we have near perfect tournaments over here but what we are saying is that they are run a damn sight better than they are over there (Read Chris Lasoya's comments in last month's PGI if you want a Yank perspective), of that there is no doubt.
Even Jerry conceded that to me !!!!!!!!!!!
And of course when I mean 'run' I include every aspect of the tournament not just the schedule.
Prizes are lower because the entrance fees are lower, much lower, so to even bring that up is bordering on the ignorant.
Yeah, there is good and bad on both sides of the Atlantic but I have yet to witness a game that had only three judges on it in the Millennium (and ours are 7-man) whereas at this year's World Cup (10 man) there were many examples of games starting with only three refs and on one occasion with two so please don't even suggest the judging approaches parity.
I will concede that over the past year or so, the NPPL / PSP tournaments have improved greatly and they are approaching the Euro template but I would not, or at least I would try not to let nationlaistic pride get in the way of your objectivity.
Also Mr Montana, your name ?
Robbo
PS Your knowledge of gay locations and festivals in a continent over 3000 miles from your own may say a little more about yourself than you might want.....Chris, is that you ?
Nah, I think I know who you are my friend and the gay comment falls into line after I recall your comments regarding a certain Alex....... Got Ya !!!!!
How are ya, didn't get much time to talk at WC
You musta been fishing

 

[SPARKLIE CHICK]

TJ no I have not gone mad but was sorely disaponited not to meet your good self at world cup.

I would like to thank the cougars for nagging me for the last 4 years into going As most of you know I run my own feild (site)
back home here in england my self and all my staff are ukpsf trained marshalls. I have not attended all the milleniums only 2 one watching 1 playing. I have seen some very good and some down right awful marshalling. On the whole the milleniums are very good.

When I was asked to ref the world cup I was very aware that as a girl if I screwed up every one was going to notice. Bill Cookson even said I was going to have to do a better job than the boys (that just how it is) But to be totaly honest I loved it

I ended up being feild ultimate a job I took great pride in I would like to take this opertunity to thank all the guys on my team your the best, you can't run a feild on your own. Yes I was worried but after the first 2 games we had all bonded and were a tight team.

Don't get me wrong it's hard work at times I really thought I couldn't go on and would keel over. That first day was an absolute killer especially under 2 tops and padding, we reffed 41 games that day.

Thanks to bill the paper work was very straight forward and a lot of the teams were very fair and did pull them selfs out, there was very little bad lanuguage. I got to meet teams from all over the world. Brazil via Japan was an awsum game and even though they spoke little english there were no problem. We all play the sport and every one knows the rules some just like to push the envelope.

I hope I did a good job. I play too and I called it how I would like it when I am playing. Hence 41 welts later and yes dj has the piccys and I have the prise for biggest welts

I didn't get up at 6am for the money! no one could pay me enough to work 10 hours in 90 degree heat, get shot to **** and run my arse ragged. I was proud to be part of it and try my best to do a good job. I did it for the love of the sport.

Refing the world cup was one of the best times I have ever had in paintball!

Sparklie Chick Brit chick on tour