Getting the local press interested

[stongle]

Hatts,

I'm taking off my Mod hat here (probably for good), and will be my last post for some time me thinks. You know I wouldn't normally post something as direct, but since it appears to be money where mouth is time, and you have implied I made a directed personal attack, and abuse of my position I feel the need to respond (and this is my own non-scripted personal view with no relevance to anybody else teams or otherwise).....

If having an alternate view from you as to what will make paintball popular counts as overt criticism then hang me out to dry mate, or if I ever get to play any of your lot bonus ball the fo'shizzle out or me (you know it is funny how forum contributions oft lead to on field actions). All I have ever done is question the widely held, but not necessarily total viewpoint that teams HAVE to be geographically linked to gain sponsorship and success (I mean I know I'm not the only one questioning it). I am a trifle sick of the same old same old football analogy, oft used by those so keen to justify geographic relationships keep throwing out. It's over simplistic, appears to be a scripted party line and as yet merely a theory (of which you've had plenty of credit from me for attempting to put into practice), not as yet to be validated. I'll admit that some of the posters do make good argument and their points are eloquently put (Tom Tom, Hotpoint etc etc). If your right I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong, I have no problem with that. Have I criticised you or the cup, don't think so. I know the posts can be somewhat long and at times Baca-esque and over indulgent, but these are arguments and opinions I formed long ago prior to any official involvement with the forum.

You know I thought you had a good concept, and we had thought about doing Witton Castle, but it was not possible for the team due to finances and time constraints. However the beasting received for raising a question or point, has left a sour taste in the mouth.

You were quite vocal last time in wanting me to proclaim "What had I done in Paintball?", well to tell you the truth not a lot (well short of helping put together and help my captain run a team, arranging outside sponsorships etc). I'm sure this palls into insignificance with what you have done, maximum props to you. However, as a paying customer who spends X'000's a year balling, I've damn well bought my opinion on how paintball will progress. In fact no matter how much anybody spends balling, if they have an opinion and can put it into words, this is what the forum is for. I challenged you and others then to explain the principals behind the series then, and despite all the back channel advertising and promotion being pumped out you couldn't quantify it on this site, although I was advised to purchase your mag.

Your defensive posturing is somewhat at odds with the tactics employed by your associates in promoting this new series, you know I gave you credit for having the courage of your convictions, now I'm not so sure (and is where my repeated questioning comes from). Not only are we treated to blanket postings across forum sections I oft have to consolidate to much criticism that the Mods here are acting in a fascist manner (I've seen the postings, comments and threads elsewhere). The constant use of the "Big up yo'self" type thread which is little more than a form of subliminal promotion (of which some of you deserve an advertising award). The repeat usage of pontificating and dogma, thrown out there more as a slap in the face to those who may not share your views (from another thread):

"So this is your chance to get your team national coverage and was only brought about because of the PA insistence in making all teams have a geographical name".

or

"Paintball Judge
Play Series 2004/And the PA series they are the only one's that matter."

Interesting........., what would the ASA say???

The usage of snide postings, thinly disguised as wit and sarcasm (of which we've been asked to remove on several occasions), levied at other tournaments in the proximity. It would be nice if all posters had a little respect for the opinions of all, other ventures (or do you desire a Monopoly, of which I can quite assure in my experience as a Director in an Investment Bank is quite bad for business, care to comment?). Or why not just don't "sh*t where you eat", or on the bandwidth other magazines pay for. You know if I was really vindictive (as you accuse me), or abusing my position don't you think I could have cut off your promotion at the knees? No we didn't because we are here to benefit all ballers regardless of whatever series they chose to play, it's all good.
And lastly let me not forget, the back door haranguing of team captains and implied threats re loss of sponsorship, denial of promotion, loss of points at tourneys etc when the conventional wisdom is questioned?.

So Hatts, that's my money where my mouth is.

I'll apologise now to Matt, Robbo, Duff, Buddha, Baca, Pipes et all for straying of the reservations as it were, and thanks for stepping in, when I've not been on the boards. In my opinion you guys have down more to further UK paintball and more over, that on an international level through a whole variety of means not just the site, mag and the training seminars (raising the bar as it were) etc. Also Mad props to all the other EXL teams (Shock etc) for busting guts and balls (just in case it never gets said). Just a shame that some people have their own political agenda's and need for self promotion, sniping and reinforcement to feed. I shall get my coat and leave you in peace.

P.S. Hatts, thanks for the offer of Sunday but it's my Birthday. Sorry

P.P.S. I hope all those reading this and planning to play the event enjoy a kick-ass tourney. All paintball played wherever (woods, sup-air, hyper ball etc) is all good no matter what level. Playing the game is where the joy should be at not the promotion or associated glories.

Now wheres my Cornetto?

 

[Robbo]

Originally posted by Hatts
Pete...

what on earth makes you think it's in something as constricting and limited as a "post" on a bulletin board? Surprising as this may seem there are in fact other media available...which we both know fine well that you're well aware of...

You know, in my paranoia, I just can't help getting the feeling that you're working an angle here to try and set me up and take yet another pop at me and what we're trying to do...If that's not the case then I sincerely apologise.

One of the many reasons I hate forums and PM's so much is that they're too open to interpretation and far too easily taken out of context.

I've stated my case many times and I'm not going to do it again here...I will be stating it again in my introduction on Sunday for the managers attending the PA conference.

If you feel up to it, perhaps you'd like to explain to our riveted audience (which I assume is why we're having this conversation by this method rather than over the phone which could be done in 15 minutes) how carrying on doing it the way we've been doing it for the last 20 years is going to prepare teams for "top levels" of competition? Just curious.

Your Serve

Hatts, no need to apologise, I was setting you up (but not in a nasty way) because the premise of this league proving to be a launch-pad for teams improving to the point where they can take on the rest of the world is deeply flawed.
Now I can easily go on and explain why this is so, scoring points along the way, but this ain't the reason for my posts.
But I will answer your question regarding the last 20 years of UK paintball.
In fact the tourney scene in the UK has been around since 88, in that time the Preds dominated Europe from about 90 to 97.
They also went onto to compete with the top teams in the US and established themselves as one of the top three teams in the world for a period of about 5 years.
The UK has not been devoid of world-class teams for 20 years, nothing like it.
During this same period teams like NWC, Barts etc also stamped themselves on the world game.

So, in the last 7 years or so, we have lapsed behind, of that there is no doubt.
To be able compete with the Yanks, because this is where it's at (like it or not), countries would need a similar size playing pool, or better training, we had neither.
However, in the last year or so, some teams over here have woken up to what is needed, Shockwave have got their asses into gear, bought an XBall field and are getting themselves over the pond to train with Bobby's team in CA.
No doubt, a more sophisticated training regime will be in place when they return.
Tigers also, have realised they need to make fundamental changes to the way they train and organise their team.
All in all, a sea change has taken place in the way top teams over here are looking at themselves with regard to becoming serious competition at the top.

Our lack of results for that 7 year period had nothing to do with the format of the game, it had nothing to do with lack of media interest, it was merely lethargy and lack of determination and organisation.
The yanks were similarly inflicted but because their playing pool was always 10,000 times the size of ours, we were always gonna be second best.

Now both sides of the Atlantic have been galvanised into action by aspiring at least to become true professionals because of the promise of TV and the way the game has evolved, and the only way we are gonna keep up with them is by concentrating upon our training regimes.
After all, we are still up against it when we look at the disparity in playing pool sizes, so training is the only avenue for us if we are to develop home grown talent instead of just buying it in (not that any of us over here have that sort of money anyway).
So my point is this, there is only one way to get our teams to compete at the top and it ain't gonna be because we tag the front of teams with a city name, or we change the format, or we have TV stuffed up our noses or anything like that.

Remember Hatts, being able to play at the top end in this game, two things have to be in place, firstly what I have just gone over, that is a correct and sophisticated training regime, and secondly you have to have the right roster.
The PA cup or any other similarly styled league does not guarantee either of those conditions.
If you dip, even slightly in either of these departments, any quest for competing with the best in the world of paintball is doomed.

Now I went on record in this forum in congratulating you in what you achieved last year, and I stand by that, but let's not get carried away with things.
I wish you the best of luck in this venture and I hope you do get Sky and whatever else you guys go for, whatever happens it can only be good for paintball

 

[rancid]

One other thing Hatts, you keep mentioning that 'some people' have it in for you 'on here' - i think you should make it clear who these people are, cos I'm concerned that P8 members may think its PGI.

matt

 

[Hatts]

Originally posted by rancid
One other thing Hatts, you keep mentioning that 'some people' have it in for you 'on here' - i think you should make it clear who these people are, cos I'm concerned that P8 members may think its PGI.

matt

Matt,

I have tried to make it quite clear that as far as I'm concerned there is, and apart from one unfortunate comment, never has been any animosty between PGI or myself. I think it interesting and not a little disturbing however that if I say I have respect for your good self and PGI I get accused of trying to suck up...oh well...

 

[Hatts]

Dear Stongle,

I applaud the fact you have an alternative view...life would indeed be boring otherwise.

Defensive posturing?...I should bloody well think so! I put heart and soul into developing something that I honestly believed would make paintball better for everybody in the UK. At great personal expense to myself I might add, so please don't start throwing out statements like "I spend £X,000's on paintball each year"...what I've spent on paintball in the last 5 years alone would make your hair turn white...(mine would be if I still had any...)

I had an idea, announced it and simply asked people if they'd like to come along. Since then I've had people, both players and industry actively trying to shut me down and put me out of business. So yeah, after a year of people slagging me off, calling me a liar, stabbing me in the back, spreading lies and malicious gossip about me...and all for saying "hey guys..why don't we try this" you bet your sweet freaking ass I'm defensive.

Your comments perhaps came at a bad time, because right now after all the sh*t I've endured I'm no longer prepared to take critiscism...and least of all from people who obviously haven't even scratched the surface of the concept or what's involved with what we're trying to do. Your entire argument, and that of all my other critics I note, is based entirely on the premise that all we're doing is clagging a town name on the front of a team name. might I suggest you look a bit deeper and when you're better informed I'll be more than happy to sit down over a beer an discuss it with you.

Of course I want to promote my idea. Not much point in burying it in the garden. What I don't do stand on my soap box and shout about what other people are that I think this idea or that idea is crap or flawed or suggesting that the Fox Network is turning players into "performing monkeys" with an add on that says "Oh yeah but well done guys wish you best of luck"

I too have my own ideas about how we can promote paintball to the masses. So far I have documented proof that at least part of what we're trying to do does work...so it's not unproven.

On a final note..."defensive posturing is somewhat at odds with the tactics employed by your associates"...I only have one associate and that's Gillie....

Whatever else anyone else says is their opinions. If people like the idea we've proposed then I would assume that logically they'll want to talk about it and promote it especially if they believe in it.

I actually go out of my way to actively encourage people not to slag others off or their ideas...which may explain why I "posture" so "defensively" when people have a go at me...

Oh...and Happy Birthday for Sunday.

 

[Buddha 3]

Originally posted by Hatts
right now after all the sh*t I've endured I'm no longer prepared to take critiscism

Well that's just plain stupid.

 

[Hatts]

Originally posted by Robbo
Remember Hatts, being able to play at the top end in this game, two things have to be in place, firstly what I have just gone over, that is a correct and sophisticated training regime, and secondly you have to have the right roster.
The PA cup or any other similarly styled league does not guarantee either of those conditions.

Pete I could not agree with you more...why does everyone seem to think I have any another agenda?

The PA series does not guarantee these things and I stand by my previous comment that I never ever claimed it would. My most basic point is that a sophisticated training regime costs money...a lot of money. Not everyone has it in sufficient quantity to achieve that. A few fortunate teams or individuals do.

If I can raise the profile of paintball to the outside world and get some interest in paintball from those who don't know what it's all about and possibly bring in some outside sponsorship for these teams then they're going to be financially better off. More money, more training, more playing which benefits everyone from the site to the paintball manufacturer to the tourney player. After all, for all the sponsorship money give out by paintball companies where does it come from? The guys buying the products.

The more I can tell people outside of paintball all about how great it is, hopefully the more young people will be interested in trying it out and the more that teams like your own will have a greater pool of skill to draw on.

My whole theory is that in order to get people interested they need something they can relate to, a "hook" so to speak. Superficially that a geographical name. But that at least hooks local media...local media hooks local interest...in turn that can create a supporter base...a supporter base creates a market for potential sponsors....and sponsors ALWAYS want something for their money. No such thing as a free lunch.

From the players POV the idea behind a national league is that currently we have local or regional series where the better teams might only play 2 or 3 others that can give them a run for their money. I want to see a national forum where teams are always playing the best from all over the country and where there's a logical system for teams to advance through hard work and dedication. But also a logical framework that those outside of the sport can look in and say "Oh yeah...I get that"

These teams should be playing the best from across the nation on a regular basis. In order to climb or maintain their position they'll have to work hard. My conclusion is that by raising the lower end at a national level then we raise the average which should in theory lift the top end.

Also there's a lot more than just the top 6 or 8 teams travel to play events like Amsterdam or Tolouse...Amsterdam attracted 27 UK teams last year, some of which went for just for the sheer fun & enjoyment of being there and being able to walk out on the same fields as the likes of Dynasty. Of those 27 a handful reached the playoffs and finals. I'd like to see 20+ Brit teams make the play offs. If we've got 20- 30 teams playing the hardest ball they can on their own doorstep on a regular basis I think they have a better chance.

All the PA is about is creating an organised framework in which teams can work and find support in improving themselves, their profile & their skills while maintaining the fun aspect by trying to remove the chaos that leads so many potentially great players to quit.

Have I justified myself yet?

 

[Hatts]

Originally posted by Buddha 3
Well that's just plain stupid.

Yes I guess it is...hmmm you think perhaps I could have phrased that a little better

Buddah man, I'm just tired of it...all I ever wanted to do was try something that I believed could make paintball better for everyone...Idealistic? definately...but I thought I'd give it a try...

I just don't ever seem to see any one elses ideas attracting the kind of critiscism I do? Am I really that bad a person? You know I've been accused of trying to "destroy paintball"...how exactly ? By designing a standard format where bereakouts are the same on every field? Even at both ends of the same field. By improving safety? By training independant referees? By giving players something they can be proud of? By creating an organised structure that doesnt see Div E players getting butt-whupped by a team of sandabaggers "guesting" from Div A even tho they've paid the same entry fee as everyone else? By improving security? By trying to encouyrage players to improve their health and fitness?

Where exactly in all of that have I tied to "destroy" paintball? Please tell me...

Constructive critiscism I love...I welcome discussion and everyone has my phone number...god knows I'm not infallible by a long way...but I'm no longer prepared to listen to self opinionated drivel that simply puts down whatever I say. I like to think I'm a nice guy and I always try and listen to both sides of any argument...no really...ask anyone who knows me...if someone has an alternative suggestion or ideas I would love to hear them.

There's lots going on in paintball, the more angles we can cover the better. I happen to believe I have a good one.

 

[JoseDominguez]

So long as I don't have to watch a group of novice players paying for the privelige of being whupped by "guests" from B div teams, then I'll be happy.
Seriously, I'm sick of it, why the hell should my newbie team pay to get mauled by players who shouldn't even be in that div? It would put my lot off. (but fortunately I know where they live so they keep coming).
It sucks and I've had enough. Roll on the PA. And thank you Hatts.

 

[stongle]

Hatts, me old pedigree chum,

Your last posts really were quite spot on. With the benefit of hindsight, though, it would have been massively advantageous right at the beginning of this sorry saga. We asked for information at the very beginning (months ago), and aside from having to buy PBUK (the advice at the time), no other advice was forthcoming. As would a banner advertisement that I'm sure Joe could've arranged at an extremely competitive rate . It's taken over a 1000 views and a lot of words to draw out the essence or vision of the PA cup, and I'll certainly concede that your Barbeque sure smells good. Forgive me if that sounds condescending, but it does appear that if successful the long term aim of the series will deliver benefits to UK paintball (and everybody has a vested interest in that). How this will integrate with Pro Series EXL and Divisional X-Ball etc (which rest assured I've thrown the odd bone at re the franchise system, costs and structure), and the other directions in Paintball; will I'm sure generate much more debate before an equilibrium will no doubt be found (or one methodology supersedes the other especially given the fickle nature of ballers).

Whilst we can't, wouldn't or haven't done anything to moderate those posters who are genuinely excited about the pa cup from posting their enthusiasm for the series. What isn't acceptable is a gorilla subliminal advertising campaign, sniping at other posters or events and threats either explicit or implied against Novice teams due to a difference of opinion (I mean ensuring a team never receives any media or sponsorship due to one members difference of opinion seems a little extreme). Even more so, when the poster in question was busy acting the most facetious P8 class clown from the biggest bunch of clowns in Paintball, I mean who in their right mind would take Monkey Love that seriously? ("thank-you" anyway). I understand and doubt that any of this was sanctioned by either you or Gillie, but it generally makes people question other peoples motives, aims and methods. I don't know anything re prior backbiting etc, and certainly have not directed any criticism at you or the pa series or cup. If it was generally that bad, this appears to go someway in understanding your defensive position. However, anything I've posted was meant to draw certain people out into debate using the Bastian they themselves choose to cling too. Call different opinions "drivel" if you so wish, but I'll respond to what some choose to post. I've never pretended that my opinions have ever been anything but "drivel", but at least I tried to justify that without the use of faux-big-ups and other less savoury methods.

As to your TV question, all the Paintball I've ever seen on TV / DVD has been somewhat anti-climatic (and has come nowhere close to replicate the adrenalin rush of playing), so to date do not feel TV is the be all and end all for paintball (yet). This appears to be the bi-product of the game format, not necessarily the production values or techniques. I make reference to DCP and the NXL, which despite all the publicity and excitement when announced has yet to make it to TV (and look what's happened to the NXL teams in silly season). My only view is until a format is proven to be TV acceptable especially to the unitiated (non balling community), it's a dual edged sword that could spell the end of the game as we know it. Maybe that's a copout, but should explain my caution in the headlong rush to embrace (any) TV (across Paintball). I'm sorry if I pissed on your bonfire, but it's the format I have the issue with at the moment. I don't work in TV, and until those in the know deliver a tangible quality product, I'm on the fence.

I sold my soul to Capitalism a long time ago, so firmly believe competition between promoters to be healthy, in this manner all tournament series gets equal play in here. Raises the bar and service for the paying consumer, something I hope you agree with. Hopefully all the jousting and internet sparring really do mean that all tournament series meet the expectations of the paying customer.

Hope Sunday goes well (really), birthdays and a mild allergy to lynch mobs means I'll pass.